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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think that Hilary Benn should

215 replies

Sallyingforth · 03/12/2015 13:38

take over as Labour leader right now.
He has time to rebuild the party into a credible opposition before the next election. With Corbyn in charge the Tories will walk it.

OP posts:

niminypiminy · 03/12/2015 15:04

Corbyn may have been right about air strikes but he is a weak and divisive figure who has made a career out of avoiding collective responsibility. What kind of leader is it who cannot unite his own party behind him?

I don't agree with Benn on this but he was able to put a much more cogent case for what he believed than with Corbyn or Cameron.

And while public opinion is at best dubious on airstrikes that does not mean that Corbyn's adolescent brand of politics has wide support - quite the reverse, if the party's erstwhile core voters in Oldham are to be believed.

EnaSharplesHairnet · 03/12/2015 15:04

Hateyhis are you referring to McCluskeys comments post Paris?

Hatethis22 · 03/12/2015 15:05

I think the problem with Corbyn is that, allowed to lead according to his beliefs, he would be have acquired a lot of support (though not enough to ever be out of opposition.) Instead you've got his own supporters within the parliamentary party disagreeing with him and watering down his stance. This was the opportunity to make Labour the party who opposed the bombing - a stance that would have gained a lot of popular support. He wasn't allowed to do that.

StrawberryTeaLeaf · 03/12/2015 15:05

Yes unfortunately though ISIS won't listen when you tell them to Play nicely.

Quite. I still haven't read an explanation of how that is meant to work.

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:07

well, the plan on the table was the only plan being put forward by a government with a mandate. It's ridiculous to suggest that moderate socialists are not socialists, one of the things I dislike about the current leadership.

Drew64 · 03/12/2015 15:10

So the majority of you think that he should shun his personal opinions in favour of the party?

This is a democracy, not a dictatorship!

Hatethis22 · 03/12/2015 15:10

That's the kind of thing I mean. Backing unelectable leaders and then complaining that they're not good leaders.

EnaSharplesHairnet · 03/12/2015 15:14

Yes I had a rueful smile.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:18

Yes unfortunately though ISIS won't listen when you tell them to Play nicely.

Quite. I still haven't read an explanation of how that is meant to work.

The attitude of "well, we've got to do something, haven't we?" is bizarre.

Clearly, it is better to do nothing than something when the likely damage of the something exceeds the likely good it will lead to (and I still haven't seen or heard anything to contradict this).
There are many potential ways to target ISIS through funding routes, which has been said repeatedly by many, many people. But the dirty laundry this will likely show up, should the sources of funding and training of ISIS be fully exposed, is highly undesirable to our government and that of the US. So better kill the innocent, eh?

StrawberryTeaLeaf · 03/12/2015 15:20

So better kill the innocent, eh?

Oh FGS.

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:23

No, it's ISIS that is killing innocent people. All this misdirected vitriol. So how do you propose to get your alternative plans enacted?

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 03/12/2015 15:25

So 'principled' would have been making his mind up a fortnight ago, sticking his fingers in his ears and not absorbing any further information, intelligence or analysis, would it? One applies principles to real life situations.

Here here.

For goodness sake. What are principles? Is this what people said when the Nazis were rounding up Jews? For goodness sake.

I would say he is far more trust worthy than Corybn because he has obv listening to the information and changed his mind.

Its what you have to do in politics and in life. You cant beat every single situation with the same stick.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:34

So how do you propose to get your alternative plans enacted?

Please explain this question further. Do you mean me personally?

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:36

anybody that's against the current plan of action. I can't see any point with talking about alternatives when the opposition isn't electable or elected. The debate's been lost, and mostly because Labour couldn't get themselves elected unfortunately.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:36

Yes, manan, ISIS are also killing the innocent. This changes no element of my argument.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 03/12/2015 15:38

I am not sure he should lead the party and right now the Labour Party can not be side tracked by this

Yes I was impressed with his speech maybe his father would be turning in his grave as he would disagree I am sure they clashed at times would he want his son to not stand up for what he felt was right

We will never ever win with Corbyn leading the party he will be out within two years thankfully. This has showed what a poor leader he is. what solution does he offer nothing in the least bit credible. he sits well being in opposition like it's his default position where he can moan and complain and yet again tell is how he will not budge from his principles how does that help how does that help with the situation we are how to we deal who the issue that has got so out of hand what solutions does he offer. he is not a leader he is a professional back bench mp and he will soon be back there

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:38

this is a gross error of scale. These things are not equivalent. A bomb being unfortunately misdirected, innocent people getting caught up in bombing is not the same as a systematic ideology of hatred and brutality where people are raped and then murdered if they're lucky.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:38

I can't see any point with talking about alternatives when the opposition isn't electable or elected. The debate's been lost, and mostly because Labour couldn't get themselves elected unfortunately.

Please also explain this further. Alternative plans to bombing Syria are not exclusively tied to Labour, if that's what you mean.

fascicle · 03/12/2015 15:40

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel
But here's a quote from Tony Benn, anyway:

“There is no moral difference between a stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. Both kill innocent people for political reasons.”

Hihohoho1
And that quite from Tony Benn is preposterous isn't it.

Thought provoking and apt, I thought.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:40

So, manana, say ISIS were to pronounce that their shooting spree had been intended for a few specific people in Paris (motivated by ideology), and the others were "collateral", would that be OK?

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:41

they do depend on being in government, don't they?

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:42

But ISIS didn't, did they, they are aiming at widespread terror, so that's another comparison that doesn't work.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:44

But ISIS didn't, did they

Does that make it worse? Better? I don't see much of a difference, really.

manana21 · 03/12/2015 15:46

well, most people can understand the difference.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 03/12/2015 15:48

well, most people can understand the difference.

And therein lies the problem. Our killing is the very best kind of killing. Hurrah.

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