In tears

[G1veMeStrength]

Fucking parliament. You utter bastards. You're going to kill people and it won't stop anything.

Thing is though the current air strikes haven't been particularly effective, so extending them doesn't make sense.

I am a pacifist at heart but I believe this is necessary action. I'm confident the skill and technology of our Air Force makes it less likely than at any point in history that WE will kill innocents. Not impossible, not will not, but a diminishing risk.

However what will kill thousands including the innocent ordinary people of Syria are the extremists. We need to show a united front from the west. We NEED. To be in it together. We need to offer our expertise.'

In reality it's unlikely we will do much. It's more a symbolic commitment. 8 planes I think compared to 60 from anerica?

I'll hope with all my heart this will reduce civilian deaths in the long run and meanwhile I will occupy myself with helping the Syrian people who are being resettled in the UK. Doing something practical and good to help them. I won't waste my energy crying. Not will I celebrate a truly sad but ultimately necessary action.

Well, I for one, think Hilary Benn's speech was excellent,

^"Mr Speaker, I hope the House will bear with me if I direct my closing remarks to my Labour friends and colleagues on this side of the house. As a party, we have always been defined by our internationalism. We believe we have a responsibility, one to another. We never have and we never should walk by on the other side of the road.

And we are here faced by fascists. Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight and all of the people we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt. They hold our democracy – the means by which we will make our decision tonight – in contempt.

And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated and it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists and trade unionists were just one part of the international brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco. It’s why this entire House stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. It’s why our party has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for justice and my view, Mr Speaker, is that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria and that is why I ask my colleagues to vote in favour of this motion tonight."^

Re WW2 and the bombing of Dresden is also worth mentioning. There was absolutely no need to blanket bomb Dresden, it was done as a brutal act of humiliation. It was known as the Florence of the Elbe, a city famed for its architecture and arts; and was a city popular with refugees fleeing the Russian advance. It was blanket bombed, despite the Americans pledging to use only precision bombing.

So we will end up getting even more refugees flooding in.
What a mess.

fanjo

I didn't mean 'oh fuck them', just to point out that if the vote had not happened or had gone the other way, that would not save civilian deaths in Syria. And because 'collateral damage' in Syria is no different to that we are already inflicting in Iraq.

IS isn't an abstract noun. It is a distinct regime on which it is possible to wage war, and it holds territory in both Iraq and Syria.

And whatever anyone thinks of the decision, it's happened. And one positive thing it does lead to for UK is greater weight in the international planning and decision making from this point onwards.

What should an Iraq/Syria solution look like? And what is the quickest way, with least civilian suffering (whether at hands of IS or those fighting them) of getting to it?

You may have guessed I have a personal connection here...my DH has been in Cyprus for lots of the past 16 months piloting these missions and quite frankly, the media and public in general couldn't have given a toss while they all worked their arses off night in night out. But now everyone's all outraged about "going to war" all of a sudden... You can see how it grates a bit....I probably should leave actually, ha! :-)

Well these are a few things I would do. I would increase online security, bring down all their online profiles to prevent grooming (because grooming is what it is)(Anonymous seem to be doing a fine job of this already). I would increase intelligence. I would find out how these evil bastards make their money to carry these atrocities and stop their earnings. I understand they steal oil and sell it cheaply. Who's buying it? Should the oil fields be protected? I would find out how they are getting arms and try to cut off the supply chain. What would you do?

If this was going to be effective I'd support it, despite hating war. But IS are too splintered, they're everywhere, and up until now air strikes just haven't been effective.

What's this falacy about refugees flooding in??

Bishop - You (and I) have no fucking idea whether the existing air strikes have been effective or not. Because you (and I) are not privvy to military intelligence.

How many atrocities have been prevented so far by targeted strikes? It may be 0. It may be 100. But dont just post glib comments that you've plucked from your arse and present them as fact.

Missdread I totally hear you. I promise the lads have my support. Just not the idiots who give them their orders.

"So we will end up with more refuges flooding in"

Do you mean to the UK? We haven't had many refugees at all.

Thanks CatMilkMan. Incisive.

Missdread, some people unfortunately, are living with their heads in the clouds.
All the kind words and kind thoughts and hurt feelings in the world (whilst full of good intentions) aren't going to solve this problem

I'm sure lots of people appreciate the good work your husband has been doing.

Reality I do understand that yes. Do you want me to rephrase my post? I'm not in favour of extending the air strikes! There, do you feel better?

What do we do about homegrown terrorists? Or those from within the EU? How do we eradicate those? I don't think has been well thought out at all.

Oh right so the threat levels have reduced since the air strike campaign began then?
That's what I mean by effective. We're at no lesser risk.

An Eye For Eye And The World Will Go Blind

loopy you can't 'cut off their supplies'... You can buy the contents of a suicide bombers vest on the high st!

What kind of grip would you like G1ve?

A grip bag, hair grips? what about one from a film set?

People aren't being very specific.

Pass - bomb Belgium, probably. (Sarcasm alert in case anyone can't tell)

bbc news 24 just said 2 tornados have taken of from Cyprus but not sure where there heading could be Iraq,we dont know

I don't know what the answer is, but something has to be done. I'm not going to cry over it but not going to celebrate either.

Oh thanks Mistress, I'm not sure was thinking maybe a bike handlebar grip? As long as it's not a pull up bar grip because I'd never use that. Mind you the advice is to 'get' one I don't know if it matters if I use it.
Hmmm.

I just don't want to know anymore. I'm doing a news blackout until 2016.