In tears

[G1veMeStrength]

Fucking parliament. You utter bastards. You're going to kill people and it won't stop anything.

I was just sent this so i'll pass it on. We all know how some people love to whinge about petitions though, so i'm sure they will do soon

Petition - Westminster, you don't speak for me

Uptown ISIS raids banks in Iraq.

www.ibtimes.com/mosul-bank-robbery-isnt-only-thing-funding-isis-1601124

Correct me if I'm wrong (I definitely could be) but when we and the allies bombed Germany during ww2 were there not civilian casualties then? But it still needed to be done due to the nazi regime.. Is that right or am I wrong?

I am immensely sad today.
I cannot get this quote by Umberto Eco from his book "The name of the rose" out of my head...;

"fear prophets and those prepared to die for the "truth", for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them and at times instead of them"

gunning - I actually probably have a much better understanding of the issues than you seem to think. I know and have know a lot of Muslim people from different walks of life...educated and less well educated people, strict and not so strict, not extremists - not disaffected youths -just 'normal' people.
The Israeli/Palestine conflict is a long standing cause of dislike and mistrust for the 'West'. My partner of over 20 yrs is a (non-practising, EU born) Muslim. Whose father told him is you have a gun and you see a Jew shoot them...for a long time if asked he would have said he hated Jews ....until I pointed out that actually a friend of ours was Jewish and it was a bit of a sweeping generalisation...
I have heard someone rant at a BBC report of a story about the conflict how biased they are and how much they are lying to us about the situation, how we are helping the Jews to murder Muslims.
My sister lived in the West Bank for a while. (I am not pro or anti either side)
I have heard someone who was upset about Bosnia -saying 'the West' would have acted sooner, not 'turned a blind eye' if the victims of the genocide hadn't been Muslim.
I have known asylum seekers from the Algerian civil war in the 1990s and heard their opinions. And from other regions.
The only person I have ever come across who was pro the war in Iraq was a Kurdish refugee...who hated Saddam, but still had reservations about the West's motivations and actions.
I will admit I do not know the opinion of every Muslim person - I wouldn't pretend to know the opinion of every non-Muslim person either.
But in my experience, my rather unscientific survey I do think accepting we were wrong to go into Iraq in 2003 - effecting regime change and leaving instability when we had already thrown the Shia's and Kurds to the lions after the 1st Gulf war is probably a sensible thing to do if we do wish to gain any respect and trust from certain parts of the Muslim community - as would taking a more definite stance in the Israeli/Palestine conflict.

Another daft petition
(I know you are just passing it on)

If the bombing went to a national referendum I'm convinced it would be voted in favour of.

The threatening undemocratic intimidation of MPs voting in favour just proves my point.

I'm in favour of air strikes (just, the solidarity with our allies swung it for me) but I wouldnt sign a petition with my name on it, in favour, for precisely that reason above, I don't want some activist publishing my details claiming I'm a warmonger.

That's petition simply isn't relevant.

Bombing in WW2 was supposed to be selective targets, i.e. factories producing munitions and supplies to oil major infrastructure.

Dresden was the exception.

Freezingwinter you're right - however bombing seventy years ago isn't comparable to bombing now. In the Second World War cities were carpet bombed - proper indiscriminate bombing. Today military targets will be selected and accurately hit. There will be civilian casualties, but it's not comparable to the methods used in the Second World War.

Freezing - you do realise that Germany is and was an actual state with national borders and an elected government. IS may call itself a state, but it is not. Syria is a state, the state targeted by the airstrikes, but Syria is not IS.

Where are ISIS getting their weapons from?

It's all very well saying it's 'Russian' weapons. Kalashnikovs are all very well, but as we know, it's a weapon of choice for home based terrorists throughout the world.

The bombing of Dresden has long been considered a war crime.

There is a risk of radicalisation through bombing, but there is a far greater risk of radicalisation through widespread Da'esh run education.

^

This

Bombing happened in the East End of London because that's where the munitions factories were.

WhirlyTwos, though I'm against the air strikes I was glad to read your post outlining the arguments in favour of them.
I hope that there is a strategy and I hope that it works with as little suffering as possible on all sides, even though from all that I have heard, and from a basic position of pacifism, I support those who voted against and alternative approaches.
I'm not in a position to expound on the full extent of alternative approaches which could be taken, but from what I've heard from others I do believe they exist.
Thank you for appreciating and seeking to understand opposing views.

Even Winston Churchill described the bombing of Dresden as an "act of terror".

Over 90% of the city, the size of Manchester, was destroyed. I do believe we won't make that mistake again.

The US air strikes have destroyed MSF hospitals.
And - make no mistake- they do not give a shit.

Badders the US tried to bluff the bombing of the MSF hospital but international pressure - and the strategic necessity - made them back down and apologise. They were made to give a shit, even if they didn't initially.

Nah.
They aren't worth they did it.
They are very sorry they were found out!

Should read "aren't sorry they did it"

If by "do not give a shit"

You mean, announced a review, confirmed that it was caused by human error and then disciplined and dismissed those involved in the human error for incompetence then you are right.

If not, stop making up unsourced things. You also pluralised it for your own agenda.

They were forced into doing all that.
They made repeated denials before they were forced Into those actions.
Forgive me if I'm not impressed.

How is Destruction of the MSF hospital "unsourced"?!

I do not know much about the actual firepower of the RAF, so this is most definitely an uninformed statement...

But any time anyone talks about precision bombing (in a modern setting, ie not ww2) all i can think of is the "smart missiles" in 2DTV (if anyone else remembers that?!)

www.msf.org/article/factsheet-kunduz-hospital-attack

The horrific account of this bombing.

I'm conflicted regarding the actual targeting within Syria. However I despise intimidation to 'persuade' those to actually get them on side. And the 'crying tears' is also a form of intimidation too.

And the attack on the Kunduz is something else. I can't imagine for one moment that given the co ordinates, emails, that this would be a target for repeated attacks, unless there was a rogue element involved.

Horrific :(
I am watching the daily politics (not good for my blood pressure!) and they have just spent 20 minute arguing about whether to use Isis or daesh!