In tears

[G1veMeStrength]

Fucking parliament. You utter bastards. You're going to kill people and it won't stop anything.

I think if I were a Syrian civilian living under a terrorist regime, both Assads and ISIS' I'd want the world to do something. They were people like us. Had good education, infrastructure, they were doctors, teachers, stay at home parents, bankers, garbage men and now they live with crumbling infrastructure, fear of death for being infidels in not believing the twisted ideals of these despicable humans. FFS they are throwing homosexuals out of tower blocks, beheading women and children. Recruiting child soldiers through fear and intimidation. Raping mothers and daughters.

I'd want the world to stand up and help.

There will be casualties, collateral damage so to speak but the fear of a bomb dropping can be nothing compared to the absolute terror these poor people live with every single day.

There cannot be dialogue or a political way out of this. They don't want anything we can give them. They want us to be wiped out for going about our daily lives. We can give them a state, we can leave them alone but it won't be enough for them. Bombings and terrorist attacks will continue, their wealth and strength will grow and with it the magnitude of their attacks will increase until we are also living in a state of constant fear.

It's not enough to do nothing. To sit on our hands weeping. To hoping solidarity (as that Shamin Liberty woman bleats on about) will solve this. It won't. What will solve this is destroying the uncivilised savages and all they stand for.

The collateral damage won't just be Syrian civilians, it will be the armed forces personnel, the European civilians who will be murdered by more attacks, the refugees fleeing persecution not from us but from these utterly despicable savages.

I'm sad for all of us but doing nothing will not change what is happening.

Churchill had some interesting points about democracy Strawberry. I agree it's the best form of government there is and we are indeed fortunate to live in a country where we are free to express our opinions. But judging by the reaction on this issue, I am not entirely convinced that last night's vote was conducted with the will of the British public in mind. I certainly don't feel any safer today than i did yesterday - the opposite in fact. I predict that radicalisation of British nationals will double for every year we remain involved. Where is the evidence to say that we categorically have a majority of the public in favour of bombing Syria and that our 650 MPs represented our views last night?

Disaffected young men?
How disaffected do you have to be to do beheadings live and post it online?
How disaffected do you have to be to shoot indiscriminately at people attending a pop concert and then call them immoral?

Agree. I would use a much stronger word than disaffected.

I'm in agreement with you Strawberry

Shocking indeed.

"All the local papers ran opinion polls"

same opinion polls at the elections were they? What did your local paper predict there.

I take all surveys with a large pinch of salt as the sample size can never be representative,

If I am going to pay attention to a survey, I think I'll go with the national ones (who also understated the conservative majority because people don't want to appear as a 'meanie' when someone stops them in the street) rather than your local paper thanks

And those polls show a majority in favour (49 for, 31 against 20 unsure)

A different topic is that those surveys have moved from 59 in favour after the Paris attacks. So i do have sympathy with corbyns view that another week would enable a less emotional reaction. Unfortunatley Corbyns credibility went out of the window when he wouldn't denounce the IRA. His own party were openly despairing of him yesterday.

83% percent for one, 78% for the other. And we do bother with our local papers here, it's a v rural county, and they are well read.

Littlelions

What exactly do you mean by

I predict that radicalisation of British nationals will double for every year we remain involved.

???? please explain.

Perhaps you'd also like to address the fact that MPs ignored their electorates wishes

Stratter5 that is a rubbish reply and you know it.

How many people voted? What is the total number of people eligible to vote in the county?

You need to expand more and not be so selective. You are not being democratic in your answer.

And could you possibly supply a link?

I'm in agreement with you Strawberry

Shocking indeed.

Yep but at least here people aren't executed for their views, however nasty.

His own party were openly despairing of him yesterday.

Hilary Benn's in my view excellent speech (though I disagree with his conclusion) stated that Corbyn is 'an honest, a principled, a decent and a good man'. I would agree with that.

Stratter are you reading these posts?

People don't email to say "I think you should bomb and kill people" as easily as they email to say "please spare the innocents"

It's human nature. How on earth do you think an anecdotal reference about emails from one of the least populous parts of this country represents national sentiment.

If 99% are against, then how come the national polls are split / slightly in favour. That's an astonishing swing.

I suppose you are going to hold the AIBU yes no thread as representative of the country as well?

Strawberry

I think the threat of deselection because you have given your opinion in a free vote in Parliament is a disgusting attack on democracy.

Ah yes, that. I agree Elendon; a vote is either whipped or it isn't.

Sorry, I was still thinking about social media nastiness.

I don't think AIBU is ever representative of the country, LurkingOne - but perhaps that's the point you were making!

Twinkie1 has made the best post on this subject I've seen so far on Mumsnet. That's absolutely the situation - in all it's nuance.

But in more positive news, the RAF have bombed the oil fields: that I can support. Hit them in the pocket and stop the flow of money- yes, that makes more sense: indiscriminately bombing towns no - but I'm far from certain that was what was on the table.

Yes that was my point!

Also agree that twinkie1's post was excellent

Sorry you had some really nasty posters at the start of the thread op, you didn't deserve it.
Im upset about it too.
Though i know it probably is the right thing to do, i am so scared about retaliation.

And to post pictures of beheaded people, dead babies, grieving mothers to those who exercised their democratic right within a free vote in Parliament is a travesty of democracy.

One wonders what their agenda actually is. Shut up and put up?

Elenden I mean that there are people within our communities who genuinely do sympathise/ align themselves with ISIS and will present the UK's bombing of Syria as evidence that the UK is attacking Islam itself. There are impressionable, vulnerable, confused young people that will be preyed upon and encouraged to take up arms as a direct result of our intervention in Syria. It happened after Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan and it will happen again. Already 500 British nationals have left for Syria and half have returned - and that's before we even began bombing. I may have exaggerated the predicted figures for effect (apologies) but I use it as an illustration of the damage that I believe will be done to our communities.

Corbyn has made a complete pig's ear of this. A great shame.

Stop giving money to these countries for oil and shut down all their internet servers = less destructive methods.

I hate these ISIS cunts as much as anyone but a small country adding a few bombs to Russia, France and America's efforts? Just going to kill more civilians.

These IS twats are underground along with their weapons so few will die. Regular Syrians though? Most definitely!

"I truly think some Paris style attacks are heading our way ... Possibly over Xmas, biggest occasion in our religious calendar"

What don't people get about 7 plots already stopped in the UK?

A couple have recently been in court days away from completing a BOMB to BLOW UP WESTFIELD SHOPPING CENTER.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12001207/Couple-planned-Isil-suicide-bombing-of-Westfield-or-Tube-court-heard.html

Very well put Twinkie.
We express ourselves freely on here everyday and take that right for granted. How can we do nothing when we know innocent people are being repressed and murdered just for wanting to live a normal life.

Can somebody who is pro air strikes actually explain what good things they think are going to happen as a result of this?

I understand the anti-bombing views entirely. The risk of "collateral damage", the risk of creating further anti-western sentiment by feeding the "Muslim-killing crusader" narrative, the hopes that some other, yet elusive, solution must be workable.

But we currently have a situation where swathes of two nations are being terrorized into submission, or killed. As a result of this, Da'esh has gained land and valuable resources. With these in hand, they have revenue. With revenue, they can purchase arms; traditional, but also biological, chemical and nuclear material, and there are shadowy figures out there seeking to sell such to them. With revenue they can employ and pay weapons focussed scientists and soldiers. And so their growth continues. Their ideology demands that growth be unrestricted, by violent means.

They are in control of schools, hospitals, physical and social infrastructure where they are.

There is a risk of radicalisation through bombing, but there is a far greater risk of radicalisation through widespread Da'esh run education.

There is a risk of innocent civilian deaths through bombing (even though very precise these days), but there is a much greater evil of allowing unabated slaughter of innocent Iraqis and Syrians at Da'esh hands.

Targeted bombing that seeks to destroy assets and property will degrade Da'esh capability and hopefully morale especially amongst the ones that are in it for the pay. If oil capabilities, armouries, vehicle fleets, and training camps are destroyed, then their ability to generate wealth, grow, murder and indoctinate will be curtailed, potentially saving thousands of lives across many countries, not least locally.

That is the "good" that I see coming of it, such that it is. Perhaps those that believe there is a better alternative can outline it?