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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should the UK bomb Syria? Yes or no thread.

600 replies

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 26/11/2015 13:54

Shall we have a little vote, here and now?

It's a big "no" from me.

OP posts:
SSargassoSea · 04/12/2015 06:57

mimimishi he suffered mental health problems because of the war and he was convinced that America armed them up in the first place and then destroyed them for the lucrative rebuilding contracts

So the west should have stood by and allowed Japanese world domination?

I've just read the Narrow Road to the Deep North. I don't think you want a nation with their cultural beliefs to rule the world. Some similarities to ISIS.

batshitlady · 04/12/2015 08:47

Stop accusing the RAF? What a silly remark!

blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 09:42

I wasn't suggesting that we should bomb because it was better than doing nothing, not at all. I was simply trying to emphasize the lack of clear cut, morally straightforward options for resolving the situation.

To those who are suggesting that bombing is an insane idea, I would still (and genuinely) like to hear some robust suggestions for what should be done instead.

Please explain exactly how training and finding fit Isis is currently happening and how it could be stopped, and why this would mean the end of conflict fit the Syrian people.

Europe's failure to get involved earlier may week have done more to intensify radicalism that anything we will do from this point on. Many refugees header for Europe have a mentality that Europe has already abandoned them by not helping when they were being tortured and pursued by the regime. They believe that Europe doesn't really give a S* about them. In other words, we've left them wide open to radicalization by not staging military interventions.

I would prefer that Britain had decided against the airstrikes but understand the need to damage the oil fields.

To return to the analogy of hostages in a house, I firmly believe that doing nothing is not an option. There is a moral obligation to use every tool at our disposal to find the best intervention that is most likely to end the torment with as little risk to innocent lives as possible. But doing absolutely nothing is not an option, as we would all agree if this was happening to our children in a school down the road. Torture and rape can't go unchallenged. We need to think seriously about whether these people would be willing to take a risk in order to move on. Many of the Syrians in the camps are pretty clear that they require military help to counter the atrocities, and a level of risk is assumed with that.

blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 09:48

So sorry for the typos, should have checked first.

JamNan · 04/12/2015 09:56

No

The British government’s strategy is both incoherent and inconsistent with the declared threat to the British people. So it does what it always does when it can’t think what to do. It bombs.
Simon Jenkins
in today's Graun.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 04/12/2015 09:58

Erm, isn't bombing the oil fields a way of cutting off funding?

Yes, and a giant asteroid destroying earth would also be an effective way to cut off funding. Why is no one campaigning for that?

OP posts:
Booyaka · 04/12/2015 10:10

Because a giant asteroid can't be controlled to destroy specific things with either a minimal or no loss of civilian life?

Come on, it's not like there are going to be schools, hospitals or family homes on an oilfield is it? And while the people there may not be active combatants they are an integral part of the ISIS infrastructure and therefore a legitimate target? What a facetious comment.

mimishimmi · 04/12/2015 10:38

We've being set up folks, by the sane slick bastards who've got us into every world war

www.activistpost.com/2015/11/isis-is-being-aimed-at-the-west-by-globalists-heres-what-we-can-do-about-it.html

They want us to be Nazis like them and they'll force us into it if needs must.

mimishimmi · 04/12/2015 10:38

sorry, I should say fascists because the Nazis were just one aspect...

leaningtoweroflego · 04/12/2015 12:04

"Come on, it's not like there are going to be schools, hospitals or family homes on an oilfield is it?"

No, but schools, hospitals and countless family homes will be shot down by our planes and/or our allies.

You saw that the US destroyed a hospital run by Medicine Sans Frontiers in Afghanistan, didn't you? It seems highly unlikely that was a mistake,

The report Body Count: Casualty Figures after 10 Years of the 'War on Terror, estimates that at Least 1.3 Million Lives, and probably more than 2 million, have been lost to US-Led War on Terror in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan alone since 2001.

If you think we're going to make a few well-targeted hits and then leave you are very naive.

Cameron has already said that this will be drawn-out. And they're talking about bombing a city. What do you think will happen if they bomb a city?

This is part of a much larger war, which has been going on for years now, and is largely about the US's wish to dominate the world, and - together with their allies - control access to oil and gas in the middle east.

Make no mistake, the US and allies - the UK included are involved in deliberately destabilising the Middle East to gain access to oil and gas.

Leaked documents from 2006 clearly show the US planned to overthrow Assad, deliberately stir up trouble between Sunni and Shia, and to manipulate public opinion through propaganda.

Article here

Leaked documents on Wikileaks here

Makes sobering reading.

Elendon · 04/12/2015 12:09

I've changed my mind after listening to Beckett's and Benn's speech.

Germany has now voted yes to send help (they are not allowed to take part in the airstrikes).

batshitlady · 04/12/2015 12:41

blytheandsebastian Options for resolving the situation without adding British bombs to those already falling down and killing innocent civilians?

How about NATO changes its policy of regime change in Syria. Which would allow for an alliance of ALL significant, regional and otherwise, world powers to destroy IS on the ground?

Also if the CIA ceased to arm, train, and fund the so called "moderate" rebel groups who are closely affiliated, in some cases directly in league with IS, this would significantly reduce their ability to hold the ground they have.

And we seriously confront Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia about their support for IS.

Do you think that'll happen though? We're fighting a proxy war in Syria, all of which emanates from Washington. To believe anything else is self-deception. Also to believe that a few more missiles lobbed from 30,000 feet will make a difference is worse! Idiotic! Not you personally, but the belief is...

We've 'done' regime change (which is a violation of international law BTW), it doesn't work. If The West is successful in seeing Assad fall, and Syria the last secular state in the region disintegrate, what will we be left with? At best ~ another Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya.

BreakingDad77 · 04/12/2015 13:06

To those who are suggesting that bombing is an insane idea, I would still (and genuinely) like to hear some robust suggestions for what should be done instead

Bombing wont do much as we are not fighting a conventional war. We need to set up peacekeeping zones to intersect Daesh and Assad territories and try to bring some stability and mitigate the country collapsing.

Obviously in line with that the establishment needs to lean on its buddies in the financial sector to bring in better diligence in tracking money movements. Additionally Intelligence agencies need to be shaking down prominent wahabi funders, middle men etc.

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 04/12/2015 13:19

Make no mistake, the US and allies - the UK included are involved in deliberately destabilising the Middle East

^ This, this and this again.
The purported reasons change over the years, as do the enemies of the moment (often cultivated and presented specifically for the purpose). But the motivation for destabilisation has been there for a long time. That's why the reasons given by politicians for bombing Syria (etc) do not add up. We are not given anything LIKE full information on their motivation, because it's essentially highly unpleasant and serves primarily the rich and powerful.

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blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 14:06

batshit Thanks for responding to my question.

If the so-called moderate rebels weren't being given some help from outside the country, there would be absolutely nothing to stop Assad. There wouldn't be a civil war. Is that what you want? Peace at the cost of a nation enslaved to a corrupt regime? I agree that arming the rebels was a poor decision in terms of context and the lack of a plan but there is a need to empower the groups being targeted by Assad.

There may or may not be a plan to create tension in the Middle East. I suspect it's more a case of tension being collateral damage as the West ruthlessly exploits the resources in that region. However, the following is also true: the people of Syria have been calling for reform for a very long time. There are many internal reasons why the political situation in Syria was heating up all on its own - dwindling fuel reserves, water shortages, lack of a free economy leading to a struggle to survive, the example set by nearby countries in 2011. And then the regime got nervous and went too far, also in spring 2011. It justified reactionary, brutal, 'peace keeping' measures by claiming that peaceful demonstrations (and graffiti) were signs of a Western conspiracy to create instability, rather than the reasonable demands of Syrian citizens expressed in largely peaceful demonstrations. It was in response to Assad's actions that the Free Syrian Army gathered force and demonstrations (such as might be held in any country) turned into what is effectively a revolution.

Given that the regime was carting off children as young as five and starving them and beating them to death, I don't think it was entirely irresponsible of other countries to say, 'These people have a right to defend themselves against a regime that is massacring its citizens'. At that point, the FSA had no option but to turn to ISIS for help with arms because they didn't have any. Again it wasn't entirely ridiculous of other countries to suppose that the FSA's links with ISIS would weaken if the former wasn't dependent on ISIS for arms (in fact they weren't mistaken in thinking that way - many of the rebel forces are moderate and are not, as mumsnetters seem to believe, the same as ISIS).

It was primarily Assad who made this war a matter of race and creed, not the West and not the Syrian people. He justified his actions and turned groups within the country against each other along racial lines by claiming they were at risk from extremist Islamists who would kill them all. He even carried out the kinds of massacres that extremist Sunni Muslim groups might carry out, just to prove the threat was 'real'. In reality, many rebel Sunni forces gave up on ISIS early on because their goals and methods were too different. Most rebel forces want a free Syria (democratically elected government, humane justice system and free economy), not Sharia law.

Of course the West is guilty for a great many things but please don't agree with Assad and overlook the narrative that this civil war is a natural, reasonable uprising to an intolerable regime.

Mistigri · 04/12/2015 16:16

blythe there are well informed people who think that the existence of "moderate rebels" is a dangerous myth. Robert Fisk - who I think qualifies as an "expert" on the Middle East - wrote recently that Cameron's 70,000 moderate fighters was complete fantasy, and that the real figure is probably closer to 70.

This is my real issue with bombing - not that bombing is necessarily the wrong thing to do, but that I can't tell if it's the right thing, because the politicians are not being honest.

FuzzyWizard · 04/12/2015 16:21

Why exactly is the Assad regime so unpalatable to our government? And by that I don't mean to suggest that the Assad regime isn't horrible but why are we willing to work with the Saudi regime but not Assad? Why are we willing to tolerate and turn a blind eye to Saudi human rights abuses?
Destabilising the Assad regime has not made life better for Syrian civilians. it hasn't materially improved their lives... They are fleeing in ever larger numbers. The uprising may have begun as a reasonable movement for democratic reform but the rebel groups are now so splintered and divided and the influx of foreign extremists to Syria so large that the rebels no longer represent a reasonable alternative anymore. Many moderates have fled, those that remain are not one unified group.

LineyReborn · 04/12/2015 16:35

And where does Israel fit in to this?

I was reading about the Yom Kippur War the other day (as you do) and the role of the USA and the USSR - bloody scary.

batshitlady · 04/12/2015 18:15

OK Blythe You win... We do another of our wonderfully successful ME regime changes and that'll stabilise the region. I'm sure it'll work...It left Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya a hell on earth, but this time it'll be fine..

Yes Assad is a dictator, a cruel one, we all agree I'm sure..... In fact I know, WE ALL AGREE . . And I believe that's what the proxy war we're engaged in fighting in Syria is about. Unseating an intolerable dictator.

batshitlady · 04/12/2015 18:22

Good question Liney ISIS are laying a trap and admit, via its sophisticated media department, that it would love nothing better than for Americans and Europeans to fall into its trap and come and fight it in the sands of the middle east.

The awful ISIS has nothing of the sophistication of goddess Isis, though she too 'set a trap' on behalf of her hawkish son Horus, in order to help forge his path to dominance.

This awful ISIS trap only appears to yield benefits for the hawkish elements of two countries: America and Israel.

European and UK military now send in the bombers (at costs of millions per day, picked up by western taxpayers BTW) to smash and degrade Israel's 'threatening' neighbours. What's not to like, from Israel's perspective?

Also the US neo-cons are rather keen too. Unseat Assad ~ install "friendly" regime and no more opposition to the Qatar pipeline.. Never mind the bloodshed, turmoil and chaos, like we left behind us in Iraq, Libya. We'll, ahem, have moved on by then..

blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 18:39

Misty The idea that there are 70 000 thousand available moderate rebels is David Cameron's highly questionable assumption and it is certainly dangerous if he's banking on them turning up in Raqqa at precisely the right moment, or asking people to make crucial decisions on trust that these numbers are correct. Experts are correct to challenge this strongly as the figure does seem plucked out of thin air. However, the idea that all rebels broadly share the same goals as ISIS is also a dangerous myth and exactly what Assad would like you to believe.

There is obviously a lot of speculation and no 'expert' will have more than an opinion at the present time. The guessing game complicated by many of the 'moderate rebels' being Sunni Muslim and very possibly having some ideological overlap with ISIS, not to mention a goal of a mainly Sunni Muslim government (which is the same thing as saying a democratically elected government, since they are 70% of the population).

You have to remember that many of these 'rebels' are people who, in a democratic government, have simply voted for the other guys if they had been given the opportunity. Rather than being the chance to do that, they had their children tortured, their wives raped and their families killed.

There was a thread on mumsnet recently where many people where saying that if the Syrian situation took place in the UK, they would stay and fight. Presumably they'd fight with whatever arms they could get their hands on. And how easy it would be for the 'regime' to claim they were nothing more than terrorists.

blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 18:43

I would add that it's highly unlikely that 'immoderate rebels' would be fighting against ISIS in such large numbers if they were all extremists with little to choose between them. No one is arguing that there haven't been atrocities on all sides. But if anyone wants a democratic, free, safe Syria, it is the people who were participating in their thousands in peaceful demonstrations in the spring of 2011. Those people are to be found in the Free Syrian Army, albeit sometimes with links with ISIS (though more often the links are safe passage through iSIS controlled territory in return for spare arms - not exactly a meeting of minds).

blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 18:51

Fuzzy The rebels were never a reasonable alternative to just hand power to. That's not a reflection on them, though. It wouldn't be possible to just hand power to any group in this country, either. They couldn't be expected to know how to run it, they haven't had an opportunity to find out. Until four years ago they weren't allowed to talk about what they would do differently and there's been rather a lot going on since then! The Syrian people, however, are perfectly capable of returning to their country and developing a new system, if the world were to help them.

blytheandsebastian · 04/12/2015 18:53

Never mind the bloodshed, turmoil and chaos, like we left behind us in Iraq, Libya.

Think that horse has bolted, actually.

Toadinthehole · 04/12/2015 23:32

The vote and debate was a complete joke. The UK has been bombing Syria for some time. It is no secret at all that the UK has used drone strikes basically to assassinate individuals known to the security services. I would love to know how that is legal under UK, Syrian or international law, ie, how it is not plain murder.

And you can't bomb hearts and minds into submission, although you can bomb them into revenge.

Big waste of money, big waste of time, big waste of opportunity and very probably a big waste of life too, although so far the RAF has been sensible and attached refineries.

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