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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should the UK bomb Syria? Yes or no thread.

600 replies

AnotherEffingOrangeRevel · 26/11/2015 13:54

Shall we have a little vote, here and now?

It's a big "no" from me.

OP posts:
batshitlady · 02/12/2015 17:21

I didn't think it actually possible to dislike Cameron any more than I already did before today.

Doesn't all this bollocks sound tragically familiar... In 2002 it was WMD and 45 minutes. Now it's 70,00 troops? Presumably all poised and ready to rise out of the sand like the skeleton army in "The Mummy Returns", once they see bombs with union Jacks on them - falling down.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 02/12/2015 17:40

if no one supported him he wouldnt get the vote....

any PM would have to do the same thing, and get vote.

dementedma · 02/12/2015 18:52

Genuinely asking those against bombing raids, what alternatives to you prefer and what do you think will work instead?

dreamingofsnowyskies · 02/12/2015 18:59

No, these things never end well.

And as for David Cameron calling everyone who disagrees with the bombing 'terrorist sympathisers,' words fail me, ham faced arsehole.

thequickbrownfox · 02/12/2015 19:01

No.

Youandmemillerscow · 02/12/2015 19:10

"And as for David Cameron calling everyone who disagrees with the bombing 'terrorist sympathisers,' words fail me, ham faced arsehole."

That is utterly stupid, dumm, hypocritical, nasty grrrrrrrrrr. I hate DC.

kinkytoes · 02/12/2015 19:17

If anything I think it's been left too late. Isis should have been dealt with when they were just starting and terrorising groups of people in Africa (remember those poor stolen girls?). It was clear they were growing in strength and incredibly dangerous, but everyone just watched and let them carry on! If we don't do anything now they will continue to grow and pose an even greater threat to the world as the months and years go by. I'm all for pacifism but these people don't deserve it. I only hope the innocents are protected Sad after all, that's the whole point of the exercise.

Noneedforasitter · 02/12/2015 19:23

Seems like many more no's than yes's, but there are more reasoned arguments for yes than no.

I suspect most people (on both sides) believe that adding British bombers to Syrian airspace will not in itself make much if any difference, but that's not the point. ISIS is a real threat and no matter what brought it into being, the world does need to address it. The only way to do so is through military action, and the least worst way of doing that is in a broad coalition of nations. For me, a vote for bombing is more symbolic than anything else, that we are prepared to join such a coalition.

That is the basis I would vote yes.

I can understand those who vote no, but I think that vote needs to be qualified by an explanation of what they would propose instead. This is not 2003: unlike WMD, sadly, there is no debate whatsoever about the existence of ISIS.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 02/12/2015 19:28

Isis should have been dealt with when they were just starting and terrorising groups of people in Africa (remember those poor stolen girls?

Kinky, a few commentators who voices have been lost in the wake of the Paris attacks and the huge amount of talk, have said Boko Harem have caused more deaths than ISIS and are worse than ISIS AND politically more worrying than isis.

And Al Queda, is ingratiating itself, into Syrian communities in a far more successful way than ISIS is. This too is a bigger worry than even ISIS.

TheCrowFromBelow · 02/12/2015 19:30

They have stated that they want to take over the whole world. There are enough troubled countries in the middle east, and enough support for them in many countries to consider an alternative for their caliphate should Syria be bombed to bits.

They have substantial support from countries we sell arms to, stopping that trade might be good start.
They make millions from selling oil.
Let's stop buying it, or stop trading with countries who do.
I want to know what the plan is, once we've dropped a few bombs. Because I don't think bombing is going to work.

kinkytoes · 02/12/2015 19:32

Elf you're quite right (I got my terrorist groups muddled there). Same argument applies to them all though. God it's depressing isn't it.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 02/12/2015 19:35

I think Max Hastings got ISIS summed up on QT a few weeks ago, saying they are a death cult with no where to go, they will fizzle out. However I am not so sure about Bh and Al Q.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 02/12/2015 19:36

The plight of those poor girls, why cant the worlds special forces go in to get them!

shivermytimbers · 02/12/2015 19:46

No
I am very me an on the term "ham faced" for Cameron though. Suits him perfectly Grin

shivermytimbers · 02/12/2015 19:47

Keen not me!

dementedma · 02/12/2015 20:24

No alternative suggestions? Not goading, I genuinely want to know what other options, if any, people think will work

FuzzyWizard · 02/12/2015 20:32

Tackle our "allies", Turkey is buying IS/Daeash oil. Saudi Arabia play a huge role in spreading puritanical, wahabbist Islam. There is no point in standing up to our enemies if we aren't willing or able to stand up to our friends.

blytheandsebastian · 02/12/2015 20:33

There's such a lack of real information about the situation in Syria. Even DC seems extremely cague about who exactly is in the various forces, how many of them and what their beliefs are. He doesn't seem to have a very clear sense of the geography of the country either. How would FSA troops get to the north from the south in order to take Raqqa for instance, especially if there are no boots on the ground to hold the southern front while they're off on this jaunt?

Assad claimed that the strikes are already generating huge support for ISIS. Iwould like to hear if this is true or not.

I'm deeply concerned that those against bombing don't have any strategy for what should be done instead. Saying 'they'd just go somewhere else anyway if we drove them out of Syria' (probably untrue) is not a reason to do nothing, given the implications of ISIS taking Damascus and the scale of human suffering endured by the Syrian people. Saying that the Syrian people would choose to have ISIS in power rather than global military intervention seems very convenient for the anti-bombing campaign and is not on the whole, what Syrians in the refugee camps are saying, many of whom have male relatives fighting in the FSA and are desperate for military intervention to end a life-endangering civil war. There is a lot of ill-feeling among the Syrian people against Europe, not in relation to air strikes that will endanger them (as they are already horribly endangered), but because Europe has sat back and watched this tragedy unfold without coming to the aid of the FSA before now. But obviously not every Syrian will hold the same opinion about this complex issue and it's easy to find people who will say whatever is convenient.

I think the real problem is that air strikes are a rather cowardly, insufficient way to go about something that clearly calls for a multi-faceted military intervention if there is going to be one at all. It seems as if DC is trying to get rid of this problem with the least inconvenience and cost to the British army (and of course his political career), even if that strategy is not the oe most likely to be successful.

The idea that there's no point shifting ISIS if it means putting power back into the hands of Assad on a temporary basis is absurd. ISIS is a global threat; Assad's intentions don't stretch beyond Syria. ISIS slaughter minorities; Assad slaughters anyone suspected of being anti-regime but does offer protection to minorities. It's a catastrophe that it's come to this, but forcing Assad to relinquish power over a period of time would be preferable to what ISIS is doing to women and minority groups. Assad is also at his most lethal now, when he's struggling for power. Dreadful as the regime was pre-Spring 2011, he was not given to carrying out massacres in the way that he, and ISIS, are happy to do today. Having him in power but struggling in some parts of the country, and ISIS in power in other parts of the country, is just about the worst combination possible for the Syrian people in terms of suffering. Although I don't back DC's 'let's do something, we cannot wait for perfection' position, I do think it's foolish not to move the situation forward to something involving greater stability for Syria, even if it's a temporary step backwards in terms of Assad. With Russia now backing Assad so forcefully, the country (and conceivably the world) could be in this tortuous deadlock indefinitely unless a Europe accepts that there is no 'one step' move that will resolve this bloody mess.

The absence of a coherent plan from DC about what will happen is the most worrying thing. British and American intelligence has been wrong about the Middle East many more times than it's been right over the years - if DC thinks there are 70 000 troops who could easily be mobilised to take Raqqa, that's not a bad reason for suspecting that there aren't. Personally, if I was DC, I would be looking for ways I could work with Russia (since it seems very hot under collar about this issue and is a powerful opponent) on defeating ISIS within the country, making this conditional on government reform, subject to international policing, from Assad. Otherwise Europe could find the situation is resolved by Russia without any opportunity to improve the inhumanity of the regime.

Back in 2011, the Syrian people were not asking for Assad to be overthrown. They wanted a series of very reasonable reforms. Things are different now, both for the party and for them. Many Syrians are keen to return to the country when it can be made 'safe' from the regime's atrocities, from ISIS and from the fighting. Assad is keen to be perceived as reasonable and moderate. I know it's a long shot, but negotiation might be worthwhile.

nooddsocksforme · 02/12/2015 20:37

no

Ubik1 · 02/12/2015 20:42

I think we may be debating an extra 8 RAF jets bombing Syria. We are akready bombing in Iraq. I suppose it would allow the RAF to cross borders? Isis is no respecter of borders anyway.

I am interested in what they propose once we realise bombing is not enough and need to send in ground troops.

Then what? What will happen?

UterusUterusGhali · 02/12/2015 20:44

No.

Nopity no.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 02/12/2015 20:44

not in relation to air strikes that will endanger them (as they are already horribly endangered), but because Europe has sat back and watched this tragedy unfold without coming to the aid of the FSA before now.

YY

therwise Europe could find the situation is resolved by Russia without any opportunity to improve the inhumanity of the regime

I think this is why other powers want to wedge in there to barrier Russia.

blytheandsebastian · 02/12/2015 20:45

Very good point from MP Gerald Kaufman along the lines of: 'I'm not interested in killing innocent civilians for a military gesture. If [effective military activity] is brought before the house I will vote for it.'

I think many people voting 'no' are voting 'no' because it's a stupid move from a military perspective, not because military intervention is necessarily inappropriate.

BMW6 · 02/12/2015 20:49

Yes, having listened to the debate so far

goodnessgraciousgoudaoriginal · 02/12/2015 21:19

Yes, but there should be much more care on ensuring that the right places are being targeted.

Likewise, it should be done in conjunction with stepping up aid work on the borders.

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