AIBU to ask how to deal with accusations of bullying?

[Whattodowhatodo]

Warning, I will probably ramble and make this long.

So, my DD in YR 4, along with 2 other girls, has been accused of bullying by another girl (I'll call Sally) and her parents. The girl moved to the school last year and this year has been in the girls' circle of friends, but it has been a rocky relationship. Sometimes DD and the other 2 girls (who have all been in class together since reception) just want to do their own thing and according to DD, Sally is often demanding that DD and the others play with her. Because Sally has had a lot of difficulties at home with a critically-ill parent, the teachers often take Sally's side and just tell the girls to be kind and play with her. Which they do, but at one point were rather frustrated from no one seeming to care about their side of the story. It seemed to have settled down in the past month or so, with the girls sometimes playing, sometimes not. Until it all suddenly happened on Monday.

On Monday morning, Sally's parents were in to talk to the head teacher. I know this because Sally was in the office when I had to speak to them about some admin things and she told me. They told the head that they are taking Sally out of school and moving her to the same school where her siblings are (as I said, they moved to the area only last year and had to take places where they could). Partly because it's closer to their home, partly because it's the same school where her siblings are and partly because they say Sally has been bullied.

Right after this meeting, the head called DD and one other girl (the other was out of school that day) to discuss it. They were basically told that Sally was leaving because of them and their behaviour towards her. Of course they burst into tears and were apologetic, but honestly, I think that was because they were scared and it was expected, rather than any actual guilt about it. I got a call after this from the head, who gave a couple of examples of this "bullying" behaviour. The one was that Sally came to sit down at the table with the others at lunch and they all pulled their chairs away from her. The other was that they were in the playground equipment and said another (not involved girl) could come and play but not Sally. None of our 3 girls can remember either of these things happening. Nor can the other girl. I can't believe that all 3 of them would be colluding so much as to lie directly to all their parents at this age, I honestly think it was something that either a) didn't happen b) was misinterpreted by Sally or c) happened so long ago that the girls can't remember.

I don't know Sally well, but one of the other mums from the 2 others accused of bullying does, and says she has a tendency to drama and has often stretched the truth around her. I know my daughter is no angel and probably not the most sympathetic to other's troubles, but simply based on the examples given, and only given by one other student without any confirmation from any adults, I'm finding it all a little troublesome that our girls were called in and blamed by the head without being given any mediation before.

The girl Sally is starting at the new school on Monday, and it's Monday when we have to go in to talk to the head teacher about what has happened and how to go forward from here. I don't know what to expect from the meeting and I don't really know what they want from us.

Feel free to take a hard line with me if you think I'm being one-sided in this. I know I'm more even about this than the other 2 mums, but that doesn't mean I'm completely neutral of course. I would like some advice in how to handle the whole situation, with school and with my DD.

Good schools talk and talk and mediate between children to address all of this. By reporting bullying, you are potentially helping the perpetrator.

Yes - it's not clear what went on here between the girls, but it does seem that the school should have been aware of what was going on (whatever it was) and not waited until somebody left to take action.

Am I the only one who thinks that the school were aware and did try to deal with it? Hence why OP's DD came home with stories about getting into trouble from the teacher. I think they were just too reluctant to call the OP and the other parents in. It sounds as though they were ineffective rather than unaware.

Aplace

Perhaps.

I agree with you APlaceOnTheCoach. It sounds like the school has been aware, has been dealing with it (albeit not verg effectively) and have now escalated it since the girl is leaving the school. It seems highly unlikely that the head would go to this extreme based on two relatively minor instances reported after the fact by Sally's mother. Obviously can't know for sure though!

I agree aplace. I think what has happened is the other girl's parents have complained, but the school have been pretty ineffective with dealing with it, ie they haven't involved the other parents or followed their own anti-bullying policies. I suspect that the reason why they've reacted like this because the girl is leaving is a bit of an exercise in arse covering, particularly if Sally's parents feel they dealt with it badly and the complaint has gone higher up the tree.

Clearly the school has been speaking to the children about it over the course of several months. I wouldn't think it's the policy ( it isn't at secondary) to contact parents of the perpetrators at the very start - maybe it was a misunderstanding or maybe it wasn't very clear cut.

I think you have to trust that the school is in the most impartial position to be able to deal with this.

I think you have to trust that the school is in the most impartial position to be able to deal with this.

Not if the bullying has been going on for a long time and caused Sally to leave the school. Agree with pps, it sounds like arse covering after the event.

The fact it has been going on for a while does not mean the school is impartial. They are more impartial than either the parents or the children as arbiters.

Why would they bother arse covering? An ineffective school would either pretend it was all just kids being kids or they would say that with the child gone there's no need to upset anyone so just to sweep it under the carpet.

An effective school would not let it go on for months.

Iguana, if the parents are unhappy with how the situation has been dealt with (which it sounds like they are, they could complain to the Governers, the LEA or even the local government ombudsman.

Actually one thing has occurred to me. Sally changed schools to a school her siblings are in, presumably this would have been the preferred solution for the family in the first place. And having had a quick look, it does appear that some LEAs will facilitate changes of school where bullying has been alleged and not satisfactorily dealt with. And that does make me wonder if in this case the parents have used it as leverage with the LEA to get a place at the siblings school, which does would also explain the arse covering.

Whatever the school have done, it's obviously not been effective. Because I think they've created a situation where nobody has been dealt with fairly or really knows what's going on.

An ineffective school would either pretend it was all just kids being kids or they would say that with the child gone there's no need to upset anyone so just to sweep it under the carpet.

Because there is every chance Sally's parents have told the LEA as well, so now they have to do something. Even retrospectively.

It's also possible that Sally's parents put in writing to OP's DD's school that they were leaving because of bullying and asked for some kind of response to assure them that no other DC would be let down as Sally was. Hence HT calls in the other parents, starts to follow the anti-bullying policy so they can (a) report back that they have dealt with the 'bullies' and (b) imply that if HT had been aware from the beginning then it would have been resolved without Sally having to leave.

We moved DS because of bullying and we put that explanation in our letter to the school we were leaving and in our application to the new school. (We also had copies of letters/emails/meeting that we had had with his class teacher about the bullying). The week that we left, the HT called to see if she could persuade us to change our minds and to tell us all the new processes she was putting in place for future bullying.

Do you really think the local government ombudsman will investigate a headteacher who spoke to some girls and met with the parents of those girls about being nasty to a child?
Half of schools are academies now with no LA (the term LEA) was disbanded many years ago.

I'm not sure it's the threat of investigation so much as the damage to reputation. As long as it's just parents gossiping then it can be dismissed as gossip. When there's a written record at both the old and the new school, everyone tends to step up. Paper trails are always more damaging and as soon as Sally actually left there was a paper trail of a new application.

Those that are saying that the school suddenly brought it up, I suspect from the OP that it wasn't sudden. I also suspect if she'd been asked to come in a few months ago she'd have been on here saying "how dare the head waste my time for what's just a couple of incidents." Heads can't win here. They either bring it up too soon, or they should have said something sooner.

But going back to bullying. I was bullied in a similar way at primary. It was brought to the head's attention by another parent who witnessed it. He immediately brought the ring leader in and had it out with her.
Do you know what her first words to me were when she came out?
Not "I didn't do it" or "What were you making a fuss about?" but "Why did you tell on me?"

So she was perfectly aware, as I'm sure the Op's daughter is, that it was unacceptable and what she was doing.
It also stopped it totally from that moment, so it worked.

Also when the head spoke to dm, there were a couple of things that stood out. Firstly he said that when he was told who it was "his jaw dropped" as did the fearsome deputy. But when he spoke to the staff there were a couple who said "yes, she was very much like that."
That was probably the weakest two teachers that noticed, whereas the best (that I adored) didn't. And, looking back, they did keep on top of it, it wasn't anything like as bad in their forms. So you can't necessarily go by "good teacher will notice", or possibly she made more of an effort not to be caught by them?
Secondly, she denied it at first, but then confessed fairly fully. Some of the things she said only me and her knew about, so it wasn't the head putting words into her mouth. In fact a couple of the things I'd put down to accidents happening to my stuff, so even I couldn't have told on her about that.

I suspect she was very much as the OP says her dd was Of course they burst into tears and were apologetic, but honestly, I think that was because they were scared and it was expected, rather than any actual guilt about it but once she knew that they were onto her then she stopped it totally, although I think she resumed at secondary, but I wasn't there.

But also, for the OP, the nicest child can be a bully at times. When I go back to school things people always say how nice I was to everyone. Except I wasn't. I took a dislike to a child at secondary school in about year 9. I hold my hands up and say I was scared and jealous of her, I would have said very similar to the OP's dd. We had a close knit three that had been friends since year 7 and she was wanting to join in and I was afraid they would prefer her to me and I'd be left on my own. So I tried to ward her off.
Eventually she snapped at me (perfectly fairly) and I had to own up to it. Thankfully we did make up up and by the time we left we were on very good terms, and, I'm glad to say, I had the opportunity to apologise to her.

My point is there, that you may have a genuinely very nice child, who people have always spoken well of, but that doesn't preclude her from being a bully at present to Sally.

Witchend, you are doing a lot of "suspecting" for a situation you only know via 4 posts on the internet. I suspect your posts have more to do with your own experience than what I have posted. But I thank you for your point of view, along with everyone else who has weighed in. It's good to get so many outside perspectives.

Haven't we all been Sally at some picky or another growing up? It's the way girls (and sadly some women) behave....that's not to say it's right. I don't agree with head teacher saying that to children without a thorough investigation. Sally's parents sound like they were taking her out of the school regardless. I can't see any sensible parent removing their child from a school after a couple of low level disagreements I'd maybe have a chat with DD about empathy but you're right when hey say that children shouldn't be forced to play with each other! You don't tell adults who their friends are so why would you tell a child.

*point

Months of eroding self worth is not weve all been there ... I think unless youve been there as a child or a mother you have no idea of the true impact it has on a family. Teachers have no training on this, and dismiss low level as normal, behaviour. Bullied children lose faith in all adults, because no one helps them, they are dismissed as telling tales, they get punched kicked and spat on, and the parents are none the wiser.
I said it before, you should be grateful the school are communicating with you, and you have a chancw to learn and change (If thats whats needed)

tiggy you don't know that Sally is being excluded by everyone. I just find it a strange situation. as whattodo said if you're forcing children to play together then you're being equally unfair on both children. I feel sorry for Sally and do think that OP DD does need to have some empathy. No one really knows the full story here but I don't think the school have done any sort of digging here and if I were the OP id be furious at my child being taken aside like that without a full understanding of situation.

The job parallel is nonsense because the people insisting this is some kind of awful bullying rather than kids just not wanting to be friends are constantly ignoring the fact that this is 3 kids, not the whole class.

If 3 colleagues go for a coffee or lunch or an after work drink together and 20+ are not involved in the lunch or coffee or drink plans of course that is absolutely fine and utterly normal.

Booyaka you put words I never said into my mouth - it is not about "toughening up" and being "character building" but about children learning social skills and forming genuine friendships rather than being encouraged by adults to fixate on a group they are not getting on with and telling children they do not have any right to choose who they play with.

Sally there has been no mention of being punched, kicked or spat on - that would be bullying.

There are massive amounts of projection and supposing and adding theoretical information not mentioned in the OP - for all we know the 3 girls tried to include the new girl initially out of kindness and she turned out to try to take over every game and play it her way, cry if she lost, change the rules to suit her and threaten to tell the teachers they weren't being nice to her unless they played her way, tell the other children they were wrong and she knew better about everything they chatted about, criticise the others' hair or accents or lunch box contents every time, generally spoil every playtime and lunch time... or she may have been perfectly lovely and the other girls a bit mean or just tired of making the extra effort. The OP's posts don't tell us, any more than they tell us half the other possible things that people have said might have happened or probably happened etc. etc.

You only have your children's account of what has happened and what head said to them. I work in a school and often children give different accounts to their parents over an incident. also children can act quite differently away from their parents and when in groups. I've seen the exact behaviours the school has described.
I would just wait to hear the full account from the head and maybe then speak to your dd with the head present.

It sounds like the girls were constantly excluding her. Low level persistent bulling by isolation and other means. Bulling often happens away from the watchful eye of staff, it doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

With regards to playing together, it's always nice to be inclusive unless someone is behaving in a horrid manner. If someone is persistently horrid, the issue should be flagged and there should be no expectation to play with horrid person. But obviously it's nasty to exclude someone who is wanting play nicely.

Iliked but you seem to be missing that the whole class haven't been accused of bullying. Only three DCs have been called in by the HT. It doesn't make any sense to assume the teacher forced those 3 over everyone else to be friends with Sally. It's much more likely that they were the only 3 bullying her (as the HT said).

You don't have to be punched, kicked and spat on, to be bullied. In fact I'm pretty sure someone posted the definition of bullying. It doesn't matter what you think of it - excluding, name calling, etc, can all be bullying.