AIBU to ask how to deal with accusations of bullying?

[Whattodowhatodo]

Warning, I will probably ramble and make this long.

So, my DD in YR 4, along with 2 other girls, has been accused of bullying by another girl (I'll call Sally) and her parents. The girl moved to the school last year and this year has been in the girls' circle of friends, but it has been a rocky relationship. Sometimes DD and the other 2 girls (who have all been in class together since reception) just want to do their own thing and according to DD, Sally is often demanding that DD and the others play with her. Because Sally has had a lot of difficulties at home with a critically-ill parent, the teachers often take Sally's side and just tell the girls to be kind and play with her. Which they do, but at one point were rather frustrated from no one seeming to care about their side of the story. It seemed to have settled down in the past month or so, with the girls sometimes playing, sometimes not. Until it all suddenly happened on Monday.

On Monday morning, Sally's parents were in to talk to the head teacher. I know this because Sally was in the office when I had to speak to them about some admin things and she told me. They told the head that they are taking Sally out of school and moving her to the same school where her siblings are (as I said, they moved to the area only last year and had to take places where they could). Partly because it's closer to their home, partly because it's the same school where her siblings are and partly because they say Sally has been bullied.

Right after this meeting, the head called DD and one other girl (the other was out of school that day) to discuss it. They were basically told that Sally was leaving because of them and their behaviour towards her. Of course they burst into tears and were apologetic, but honestly, I think that was because they were scared and it was expected, rather than any actual guilt about it. I got a call after this from the head, who gave a couple of examples of this "bullying" behaviour. The one was that Sally came to sit down at the table with the others at lunch and they all pulled their chairs away from her. The other was that they were in the playground equipment and said another (not involved girl) could come and play but not Sally. None of our 3 girls can remember either of these things happening. Nor can the other girl. I can't believe that all 3 of them would be colluding so much as to lie directly to all their parents at this age, I honestly think it was something that either a) didn't happen b) was misinterpreted by Sally or c) happened so long ago that the girls can't remember.

I don't know Sally well, but one of the other mums from the 2 others accused of bullying does, and says she has a tendency to drama and has often stretched the truth around her. I know my daughter is no angel and probably not the most sympathetic to other's troubles, but simply based on the examples given, and only given by one other student without any confirmation from any adults, I'm finding it all a little troublesome that our girls were called in and blamed by the head without being given any mediation before.

The girl Sally is starting at the new school on Monday, and it's Monday when we have to go in to talk to the head teacher about what has happened and how to go forward from here. I don't know what to expect from the meeting and I don't really know what they want from us.

Feel free to take a hard line with me if you think I'm being one-sided in this. I know I'm more even about this than the other 2 mums, but that doesn't mean I'm completely neutral of course. I would like some advice in how to handle the whole situation, with school and with my DD.

It's out of order to haul your daughter up without proof or investigation

To be fair, we don't really know if there was proof or an investigation. And it would seem fair that the headteacher should ask the girls if the accusations were true. That could be the start of the investigation for all we know, or it could have been something that the school were previously aware of.

We've only got the OPs DD version of what the headteacher said. When I went to the school about my DS being bullied, the first thing the Deputy Head did was get the children together and ask if it was true, they admitted it. What should the headteacher do?

I also dont actually see what the HT has done wrong without knowing the full story. My DD was in the receiving end in year 4 but in this case the person doing the excluding was "Sally" who had joined the school later, became a Queen Bee of dds group and excluded dd from games. It was worse for dd because she was not allowed to play with her friends she had since she was in reception. If you watch the programme "a day in the life of a 4 year old" the girls are doing the excluding thing even at that young age
Their teacher was excellent and put a stop to it as soon as it was bought to her attention
They did go on to be best friends in yr 5, but went their separate ways in secondary.

Hi everyone, hard to reply now that kids are home from school. Just want to clarify when I said about Sally's parents mentioning the bullying, I was supporting that they must believe it, as they didn't have to mention it since there were other good reasons to leave. I wasn't trying to say, "why did they bother bringing it up"!

My ds was low-level bullied in y6 by a group of friends. On the whole they got on well, but under the surface there were lots of sniping comments about his being in the choir etc, how he was a freak and a weirdo for singing in the choir and so on. It was low-level stuff but it made him feel that he was unable to do the things he enjoyed because he was being judged by his friends. They weren't even unpleasant kids they were just kids who can be bloody mean at this age.

Once it all came out I went into the school and had a word, but it was under duress from ds because he felt he would be bullied worse if it came to light his mum had been in for a word. The school talked to the class as a whole about how year6 is fraught with emotion, change and so on and to the best of my knowledge things calmed down somewhat. Ironically one of the boys now attends an all boys school with one of the most famous choirs in the borough. oh the irony.

Op, just because sally has been invited to these girls' houses doesn't mean they haven't also been excluding her on occasion. If the parents have felt fit to mention it when talking about leaving the school then it's obvious there is some upset over this, or they wouldn't have had to mention it, given they're leaving anyway.

I would talk to your dd about what's been said, and I would also go into the head on Monday with an open mind. Currently the information you've been given has been 3rd hand through other parents etc. Just because the word bullying has been mentioned doesn't mean there is violence or anything like that at steak, but equally if children are feeling excluded by your dd and her group of friends they need to be aware of the impact of their actions.

Persinally I think you are lucky the HT phoned you for a meeting, most HT sweep it under the carpet and ignore. At least you have a chance to change her behaviour before high school.
Those that Bullied DD are very lonely in high school as there better than you attitude was never addressed at primary.

If an incident hadn't just happened that needed dealing with, shouldn't the head have set up a meeting with OP & her daughter to discuss things rather than just calling her in & saying that she's a bluuy & because of it Sally is leaving?

I had a thread about my dc the other day and most of the things you say your Dd was doing are things happening to my Ds. Most mn'ers said it was bullying. Having a child on the other side, although not having a tricky home life but certainly a sensitive child, I can see how this would have made sally feel. On here I was told to report it to the school and I would certainly expect the children to have been spoken to. Ok maybe that is not the reason they changed schools but the low level stuff can be soul destroying to a child.

I wouldn't call this bullying.

There is being kind and then there's forcing friendships. You can't force personalities to click and be friends.

Just because someone doesn't like you and doesn't want to play doesn't make them a bully.

I agree but what if that means that there is literally no one that child can play with? (Okay there are other children in this case but I am talking in general and specifically about my ds - thread referred to above)

Clash my ds is also quite sensitive underneath you wouldn't ever guess he comes home and cries when he and his friends fall out.

Hes also 8, there's no way the teacher or school can force dc who don't like each other to be friends.

My ds teacher has said the whole year is like this atm and has buddied my ds up with another boy for a week to see if they can make friends.

I haven't gone in accusing other children of bullying my ds because they won't play with his football and will only play with another's boys ball. I've had a quick word said ds is struggling with friendships and the teacher has came up with this solution.

When a child is told often enough to go away, no one likes you (even a chat over the lunch table?) They start believing it, it destroys their self worth. They then believe all the kids feel the same. They become sad, and, this then stops other children wanting to play with them. Its a downward spiral.
You dont have to like everybody, but you do have to be civil and respectful.
One day your DD will be on the receiving end, and you will be dealing with the tears and sleepless nights.

Being kind doesn't need to mean you will play together.

Dc are also still learning, we can't expect them to be adult about these things. They will get it wrong. That doesn't mean another dc should be labled a bully because they don't like another dc, they need to be taught how to be kind and civil without having to be friends.

I'm am adult. I'm polite and kind to people who I don't particularly like as I'm also professional. More dc need to be taught this valuable life skill.

Let's remember too, that what the OP will have heard from her DD is the tip of the iceberg and is going to be dressed up as "definitely not bullying". The fact that stuff described by the OP via her dd is seen as bullying by many on this thread speaks volumes.

OP- go in, speak to the HT, calmly, and definitely without the other mothers, one of whom at least sounds like a total bitch. Maybe the HT will have a completely different version of events. Wouldn't be the first time...

Great posts Narp and Witchend. I never get this thing about 'you can't force people to be friends with someone...'. No, but you can ask them to include them. I make an effort at parties, toddler groups, work etc to speak to people who are looking lonely. It doesn't mean I have to be their friend but it makes me sad to think of someone lonely. And it breaks my heart to think of lonely children.

My DS was bullied in and out of school a couple of years ago. The school knew about it and saw it happening in school. Even the Ed Psych (DS has SEN) commented on it. The parents were friends of mine and point blank refused to believe it. They gossiped about much of a drama queen I was, how sensitive I was being, about DS' behaviour, argued with me that it was all totally normal behaviour and not bullying at all. It was horrible, I had a nervous breakdown from the stress (other factors but DS being bullied and their reactions were a colossal part of it). A teacher had talked about it to one of then and they still denied it totally. Having to address the whole issue was the single most terrifying thing I have ever had to do, there is no way I would have done anything about it if I hadn't been absolutely desperate.

Of course, it may be that Sally is a drama queen, the parents are being silly, the head is behaving unprofessionally etc but it may be that there is actually a problem and the school have decided to take action. Keep an open mind and don't gossip to the other mums about it.

I think when we hear the word bully, we think it is so terrible that we get very defensive. The 'bullies' that went for DS (and it was all exclusion type stuff) weren't bad kids, they just carried away en masse and needed some guidance. It sounds to me like your daughter might be the same? And kids of that age definitely collude together to cover themselves!

Thankyou Alma

And I agree.

I think lots of people need educating about what bullying behaviour is. Most children do not bully, but plenty of children do. And they aren't the stereotype of a bully either - they are normal children who need guidance as they mature about how to behave towards others, how to deal with their own emotions so they don't lash out at others and how to be their own person in the face of peer pressure and competitiveness at school.

Bullying damaged my son's sense of self for a long time, and the thought that my other son was doing that to someone else was horrible. But we got through it.

OP - My son cried when confronted, then got angry and defensive, and this was because he was ashamed deep down. I would have done him to favours to join in this defensiveness, nor did I get angry and shame him myself. I let school deal with it, and I talked to him a lot about feelings so he could become someone who could empathise more with others. In his case, there was an Alpha who set the 'tone' amongst the less -secure children - of teasing, belittling, and joking. The children joined in because sub-conciously, they didn't want to be at the receiving end of this. Children can't always articulate their discomfort with what they are doing.

It always strikes me, when talking about children how many people say 'children can be so cruel'. This is sometimes used to argue that being left out etc is all part of childhood. Actually, IME (in school) most aren't cruel. But some do go through these phases when they need us to call them out on their behaviour

DS has been victim of that type of bullying and I wish the Head at the time had taken it as seriously because it's basically destroyed DS' self confidence and it's still having consequences a couple of years later. :( Ok. blaming them entirely for her leaving is a bit much at that age but I think they need to know the consequences this can have. It's horrible. If it was your DD at the other side of it, how would you want the bullies to be dealt with?

Some very good posts in here op
No one wants to think their child is a bully but I think some words are needed with your DD and you might want to keep low level with the others mums if they don't want to face up to their DD role in this either

So children can not now decline to play with another child without being labelled bullies? Utterly ridiculous. The playground is a socially brutal place, but they need to learn and toughen up.

Of course they can.

What they can't do is behave like the OP has described her daughter and her daughter's group of friends doing.

Although if I were a teacher (or parent) being made aware that my child was refusing to have someone in their friendship group I'd investigate and find out why. Because there's a big difference between "I'm not playing with her because she thumps me and pinches my last rolo" and "Because she smells/is poor/has weird skin" etc. If my child were not able to give me a valid reason for excluding another then I'd be giving her what for.

To everyone assuming that Sally has been totally shunned, I assure you this is not the case.

How do you know that? You only have the word of your daughter to go by, so you are making assumptions based on that of a defensive 9 year old. She's hardly likely to say "mum we've been really quite horrible to Sally you know - I'm as much to blame as the others". Nobody likes to admit they are wrong and nobody likes to admit they've behaved in a bullying way.

I don't see why the headteacher shouldn't raise this with the group. It would be 100 times easier for him to say she was leaving due to a place coming up at a nearer school and not address it at all. Why would it be in his interests to risk alienating 3 sets of parents over something which didn't happen or which he thinks is as a result of the child leaving? He's obviously decided that it's worthy of 3 parent meetings (about 45 mins each I'm guessing) over a child who will no longer be his responsibility. I think for that reason alone it is good of him to address it.

They say about 40% of kids are bullied. Someone is doing the bullying. It might be more palatable to you to feel that a new child to the school with a critically ill parent is in fact bullying your daughter and her 2 friends by asking the midday supervisors to help her join in. I disagree. Sally is very vulnerable and while they cannot be forced to make friends with her, by 9 they need to be able to look at the situation through a more selfless lens. Sally must have a very emotional time of it at home and be experiencing a lot of feelings she doesn't really know how to cope with. School is her only other experience at that age.

Your child will learn a huge amount from this situation. If you go into it assuming that dd has done no wrong, that the headteacher is creating a fuss over nothing, and that in fact Sally is the one to blame, your child will either consciously or subconsciously feel that mum will never place any blame at her door and she can continue with impunity in another situation. I actually think how you respond to this situation will shape considerably how she behaves in future situations.

I would be going in with a very open mind.

I agree with Garlic when she says

However, I'm averse to telling children - particularly girls - to "be kind" as a general directive. We are not obliged to put other people's wishes before our own. What you're aiming for is compassion/empathy and the ability to negotiate within relationships. This is obviously going to be imperfect at the age of eight, but it's the perfect time to be starting to develop these skills.

I am pretty amazed that people think young girls should be told to be submissive and play with whoever wants to play with them even if they don't want to because being kind to others is more important than being unhappy themselves.

Compassion and empathy - absolutely, these must be taught, modelled and encouraged. That does include staff and Sally having empathy for the girls who want to continue their game without always having to change it to include anyone who demands to join in.

Compliance and giving up your every play time and lunch time to keep somebody else whom you don't want to play with happy by playing with them - that is unnecessary.

Adults get to choose their friends, but apparently if children exercise that right they are bullies

I do feel for Sally, but absolutely do not think its doing her any favours either to teach her that other children "have to include her" or else they'll get in trouble with the teachers. That's not teaching her how to manage social and friendship situations in any lasting way. The school have handled it terribly - there should have been talks with the whole class about empathy and compassion and an attempt to pair Sally with a more compatible companion/s and help for Sally in building friendships and perhaps social skills.

Iguana that's a very adult way of dealing with things. A year 4 wouldn't have that sorted grasp on it all.

Navigating friendships are tricky and they're all learning. The head has been very unprofessional and I don't believe students should be labled bullies unless they are actually going out of their way to bully another child.

No example given has it that the dc being labled bullies have gone over to sally and been spiteful and bullying. It's sally wanting to take over their group.

I totally agree it's bullying.

While I do agree that kids shouldn't be forced to play with kids they may not like much it's when a group gets together and all decide not to play with Sally that the problem starts. Pulling the chairs away is really mean. Your dd and the others could have let her sit next to them while eating even if they didn't want to play with her. As an adult I sometimes have to sit next to people I may not choose to, but I'm polite and courteous.

I thnk it sounds like you've got a good head and Id be giving my dd a good talking to if she had beening so mean to someone.