AIBU to ask how to deal with accusations of bullying?

[Whattodowhatodo]

Warning, I will probably ramble and make this long.

So, my DD in YR 4, along with 2 other girls, has been accused of bullying by another girl (I'll call Sally) and her parents. The girl moved to the school last year and this year has been in the girls' circle of friends, but it has been a rocky relationship. Sometimes DD and the other 2 girls (who have all been in class together since reception) just want to do their own thing and according to DD, Sally is often demanding that DD and the others play with her. Because Sally has had a lot of difficulties at home with a critically-ill parent, the teachers often take Sally's side and just tell the girls to be kind and play with her. Which they do, but at one point were rather frustrated from no one seeming to care about their side of the story. It seemed to have settled down in the past month or so, with the girls sometimes playing, sometimes not. Until it all suddenly happened on Monday.

On Monday morning, Sally's parents were in to talk to the head teacher. I know this because Sally was in the office when I had to speak to them about some admin things and she told me. They told the head that they are taking Sally out of school and moving her to the same school where her siblings are (as I said, they moved to the area only last year and had to take places where they could). Partly because it's closer to their home, partly because it's the same school where her siblings are and partly because they say Sally has been bullied.

Right after this meeting, the head called DD and one other girl (the other was out of school that day) to discuss it. They were basically told that Sally was leaving because of them and their behaviour towards her. Of course they burst into tears and were apologetic, but honestly, I think that was because they were scared and it was expected, rather than any actual guilt about it. I got a call after this from the head, who gave a couple of examples of this "bullying" behaviour. The one was that Sally came to sit down at the table with the others at lunch and they all pulled their chairs away from her. The other was that they were in the playground equipment and said another (not involved girl) could come and play but not Sally. None of our 3 girls can remember either of these things happening. Nor can the other girl. I can't believe that all 3 of them would be colluding so much as to lie directly to all their parents at this age, I honestly think it was something that either a) didn't happen b) was misinterpreted by Sally or c) happened so long ago that the girls can't remember.

I don't know Sally well, but one of the other mums from the 2 others accused of bullying does, and says she has a tendency to drama and has often stretched the truth around her. I know my daughter is no angel and probably not the most sympathetic to other's troubles, but simply based on the examples given, and only given by one other student without any confirmation from any adults, I'm finding it all a little troublesome that our girls were called in and blamed by the head without being given any mediation before.

The girl Sally is starting at the new school on Monday, and it's Monday when we have to go in to talk to the head teacher about what has happened and how to go forward from here. I don't know what to expect from the meeting and I don't really know what they want from us.

Feel free to take a hard line with me if you think I'm being one-sided in this. I know I'm more even about this than the other 2 mums, but that doesn't mean I'm completely neutral of course. I would like some advice in how to handle the whole situation, with school and with my DD.

Plus- if it was sustained and repeated, then the parents should have gone in, raised it earlier, and then the children all got together for proper mediation and some ground rules agreed. It's a bit late now, and sounds like a 'parting shot' rather than any attempt to actually change anything (as they are leaving anyway) which has left the school wrong-footed and blaming the girls.

OP, I wouldn't assume Sally is lying through, girls do indeed exclude each other quite easily and there's a lot of 'gangs' and who is in whose club at this age. I wouldn't encourage your dd to see herself as the victim here, even if you do explain that there are lots of reasons the child left.

I do think the school should have talked to Sally too and explained to her how better to deal with the situation and help her find someone else to play with.

Just to add I'd probably also avoid discussing this with the other mums, especially as you've posted along the lines of "one of the other mums says Sally has a tendency to drama and stretching the truth". Sounds like she's already veering towards thinking her little darling can do no wrong and is weaving a narrative to suit that.

You deal with your own DD and her involvement in the situation, let the other mums sort themselves out.

This thread made me feel sad.

I have been 'Sally' when I moved schools aged 11, and been that person that no one wanted to talk to or play with because they'd all 'known each other since reception' and I was an outsider.

It's not nice and whilst I don't think that children should be forced to play all the time with someone they don't want to play with, it does sound as though your DD and her friends had a 'We will play with anyone except Sally' policy.

I would suggest you make a formal complaint to the governors about the head - totally inappropriate to challenge your daughter and her friend in the way that she did. I'd copy in lead councillor on education at your County or other council too.

Whilst it is good to encourage kindness in children at the end of the day we can no more require them to be friends with someone they don't want to be friends with than an adult. At my son's school they used to appoint induction buddies for new children who joined the class and they would be quite proud of their role in helping them settle in.

I'm not keen on the mums chat here - victim blaming the girl who's got a very ill parent for being a manipulative drama queen based on hearsay isn't that lovely. Shouldn't we give the girl with the critically ill parent some benefit of the doubt? What's she's going through will have long term consequences, whereas this is just a bit uncomfortable for your DD.

Thing is that yes, Sally is probably moving because a space has come up at a sibling's school... but it's not out of the bounds of possibility that a space for a sibling has come up at her school and her parents have refused it because they don't want Sally to stay there. Then yes, she is moving schools because of bullying.

Those that are saying it's okay to exclude Sally if they don't want to play with her. What happens when Sally has been round every child and they've all said "no"? Does she just say "okay, no one wants to play with me today"?

The couple of examples are probably tip of the iceberg rather than all that has happened. Those are ones where they are very clearly wrong. Rather than the times they all turned their back and whispered when she came up, the times they made sure she got the grotty pencil when they were handed out, the times they made sure she had to go and stand at the end of the queue despite being there first... all things that age do, and then look all innocent and say "but we were whispering about what we're doing after school"; "she was last to get the pencil"; "she wasn't really in the queue"...

I very much doubt the parents would have been in about just those two, and in fact you admit it earlier. And I also doubt it was the first your girls had heard about it... like being told they had to play nicely with Sally???

My dd was in the same year as a girl whose dm was critically ill. When her dm died, her friendship group were a real source of support to her. School became a place she could be normal and things continued as usual as much as they can. They did little things and brought little presents to show how much they cared. That was what Sally's parents were hoping for her. Not to be excluded from school friends too so she couldn't relax there either.

Excellent post from Witchend. I couldn't agree more.

To everyone assuming that Sally has been totally shunned, I assure you this is not the case. She isn't some simpering wallflower, has had her own mean moments (which I didn't and won't bother detailing) and has been invited and been to plenty of playdates and parties by all 3 girls.

What's done is done. Obviously the parents didn't have to mention bullying as a reason they were leaving the school, since there were plenty of good reasons without that. My question is why is the first I hear of it from the school is a call from the head? Why wasn't it mentioned before? Why hasn't something been mentioned from the class teacher?

Agree with both 'sides' on this thread.

Agree that bullying, or excluding, can be subtly relentless and that young children can explain it away as just this or just that.

Also agree kids shouldn't be forced play with other kids. They are allowed their friendship groups and allowed to not like certain other kids.

This is why the only solution is to talk frequently to our children about being kind, showing and feeling empathy and sympathy, being friendly, sharing, including when appropriate, not going along with bullying behaviour of others, looking out for more vulnerable children when appropriate.

Yet also enforcing the view that they are autonomous people who are allowed to choose their own friends and dont have to be friends with people they don't want to be (otherwise we are telling them not to trust their instincts and feelings and not to impose their own boundaries).

I agree with Witchend. The examples you were given probably were the tip of the iceberg, or the more 'tangible' examples that Sally was able to describe.

It is tricky, as is some ways I can see why children shouldn't have to play with other children that they don't want to. But I can also see if from Sally's point of view, it must be absolutely heartbreaking to be excluded.

From what I hear from my DD10, there's a lot of children trotting out the 'This game is only for 4' when a 5th child wants to join in. I've always told her that, unless there is an extremely good reason (and i can't think of one off the top of my head!) she is always to let another child play in group games. They don't have to be best friends, just to let the child play. I hate this idea that there should be little gangs, and other kids have to be excluded.

I agree that the head should not tell the children that they are the sole reason that Sally left, but actually I think they should be made aware of how their actions affect other children.

Oh and agree the teachers and head have not seen to have followed a sensible process

Obviously the parents didn't have to mention bullying as a reason they were leaving the school, since there were plenty of good reasons without that.

If it was part of the reason why should they not have mentioned it. why should a bunch of unkind children not be made aware of their actions.
You do admit that they weren't very nice, so rather than try excuse it by focusing on the head look at how it made another child feel.

I also used to say exactly that to my daughters about including other kids in games when they were at primary, Budgie. That they didn't have to be friends but had to be friendly. If there were excuses about why so and so couldn't play a certain game, I would call them on it and say 'come on you know the truth here if people aren't letting them play'.

Try not to be defensive.

The minute the word bullying is mentioned, we want to deny it. And sometimes we want to get together with other parents to uphold our defensiveness. Sounds like that is what is happening here.

A child can be behaving in a bullying way and still be basically a good child. It's possible that your child has behaved badly. My son was involved in bullying at Primary, and it was excruciating for me to acknowledge that. Somehow, we want our children to be better than us, to never be drawn to behaving in a way that is less than kind.

Don't get into victim blaming, and ganging up with other parents who want to defend their own child. Do what is best for your own child and acknowledge the possibility that she has been bullying

All that said, I think the Head has not handled this at all well. I do not think it is at all helpful to shame children in this way when there has been no prior investigation and discussion, and when they have no opportunity to make redress for their actions.

The aim should be to educate, not shame and label, and I guess that is what is so upsetting to you.

How do you know this is the first time Sally's parents have spoken to the school about it? You seem aware that they have had a "rocky relationship" since she first arrived because they didn't want to include her (and that's your/your dd's version). It doesn't sound like this has come out of the blue.

We're playing this and there's no role for you is excluding behaviour, and not particularly "standard" at all, op.

Obviously the parents didn't have to mention bullying as a reason they were leaving the school, since there were plenty of good reasons without that

But if they believe that Sally was being bullied, they were quite right to mention it. They must have felt quite strongly that Sally was being bullied. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have mentioned it.

She isn't some simpering wallflower, has had her own mean moments (which I didn't and won't bother detailing) and has been invited and been to plenty of playdates and parties by all 3 girls

This doesn't mean that the girls have not been bullying her though. When my eldest DS was in year 5, he had lots of friends, and went to playdates/parties etc. However, one day he just burst into tears and told me that for about a year he had been picked on at school by his friends. It was all fairly low level stuff, by children that he got on well with most of the time, but he had become the one that they teased. He's not a wallflower at all, and is actually quite confident, but it all got to be too much.

We went and talked to the school, who sat all the children down together, and they talked about how the children's actions made my son feel. I genuinely think that they just didn't realise how the constant teasing had upset him. Things improved greatly after that.

My point is, your DD and the other girls may invite Sally to parties and playdates, but if they sometimes exclude her, pull their chairs away, pointedly ask another girl to play with them, they may not realise how hurtful that may have been to her.

If OP was only told a couple of days ago about the bullying, has the head also only just been told?

Presumably Monday will be a general chat about how Op's daughter will be expected to behave in future?

Floggingmolly

I agree. Especially in year 4children

My dd was a 'Sally' in junior school all because she hadn't been with the majority of the girls since nursery age (and because I hadn't grown up in the same town as the majority of the mothers).
Thankfully she is now in a sec school very happy and with lot's of new girls who don't exclude her.

Yy budgie

My other son was bullied by one of his groups of friends. All low level, but cumulative. To my shame i did not see it until it had been going on for a long time.

School was great at dealing with it once they knew

Very odd way of the school dealing with it. I've wished a few ties that some awful bullying brats & their parents had been hauled up in front the headteacher but of course they don't because they are professionals! They cannot say for sure these things happened unless they were witnessed & logged by a member of staff. It's out of order to haul your daughter up without proof or investigation. It sounds like a knee jerk reaction by the head which shows her up as unprofessional. Either that or your dd has a reputation for this kind of thing & this is the last straw (sorry if not)
I would just really work on her empathy skills, talk about being nice, bullying etc in a general way. She is probably shocked enough anyway without you giving her punishments etc

or alternatively, maybe the head made a knee jerk reaction because she had good evidence and thought it egregious that the DC of a critically ill parent wasn't being properly supported. Op you could sound a bit more sympathetic to the child that's leaving while defending your DD as you see fit. Yes you could have known sooner, but shouldn't your DD merely accept the minor correction here?

I have no doubt that if I had told some people that Ds1was being bullied, they would not have believed me,

And i know people did not believe DS2 was bullying.

But both were true