AIBU to ask how to deal with accusations of bullying?

[Whattodowhatodo]

Warning, I will probably ramble and make this long.

So, my DD in YR 4, along with 2 other girls, has been accused of bullying by another girl (I'll call Sally) and her parents. The girl moved to the school last year and this year has been in the girls' circle of friends, but it has been a rocky relationship. Sometimes DD and the other 2 girls (who have all been in class together since reception) just want to do their own thing and according to DD, Sally is often demanding that DD and the others play with her. Because Sally has had a lot of difficulties at home with a critically-ill parent, the teachers often take Sally's side and just tell the girls to be kind and play with her. Which they do, but at one point were rather frustrated from no one seeming to care about their side of the story. It seemed to have settled down in the past month or so, with the girls sometimes playing, sometimes not. Until it all suddenly happened on Monday.

On Monday morning, Sally's parents were in to talk to the head teacher. I know this because Sally was in the office when I had to speak to them about some admin things and she told me. They told the head that they are taking Sally out of school and moving her to the same school where her siblings are (as I said, they moved to the area only last year and had to take places where they could). Partly because it's closer to their home, partly because it's the same school where her siblings are and partly because they say Sally has been bullied.

Right after this meeting, the head called DD and one other girl (the other was out of school that day) to discuss it. They were basically told that Sally was leaving because of them and their behaviour towards her. Of course they burst into tears and were apologetic, but honestly, I think that was because they were scared and it was expected, rather than any actual guilt about it. I got a call after this from the head, who gave a couple of examples of this "bullying" behaviour. The one was that Sally came to sit down at the table with the others at lunch and they all pulled their chairs away from her. The other was that they were in the playground equipment and said another (not involved girl) could come and play but not Sally. None of our 3 girls can remember either of these things happening. Nor can the other girl. I can't believe that all 3 of them would be colluding so much as to lie directly to all their parents at this age, I honestly think it was something that either a) didn't happen b) was misinterpreted by Sally or c) happened so long ago that the girls can't remember.

I don't know Sally well, but one of the other mums from the 2 others accused of bullying does, and says she has a tendency to drama and has often stretched the truth around her. I know my daughter is no angel and probably not the most sympathetic to other's troubles, but simply based on the examples given, and only given by one other student without any confirmation from any adults, I'm finding it all a little troublesome that our girls were called in and blamed by the head without being given any mediation before.

The girl Sally is starting at the new school on Monday, and it's Monday when we have to go in to talk to the head teacher about what has happened and how to go forward from here. I don't know what to expect from the meeting and I don't really know what they want from us.

Feel free to take a hard line with me if you think I'm being one-sided in this. I know I'm more even about this than the other 2 mums, but that doesn't mean I'm completely neutral of course. I would like some advice in how to handle the whole situation, with school and with my DD.

Excellent post as usual Iguana.

I had a post a few months back about DS being a bully. Let's be honest no mum wants to be 'that' mum and it was mortifying. But frankly it wasn't the time to worry about my embarrassment but to sort out DS and the boy concerned.

Bit of a similar situation, very briefly - new boy in school described by the teacher as a bit of an odd fish, my DS is bit of the class clown and it escalated from general joking around including all boys, to DS realising he got more laughs by being mean about the new boy. (Please know that this brief summary is not me minimalising it but just keeping it short to paint a picture on this thread)

Anyway I do believe you need to take this very seriously, it's a big learning opportunity for you DD about empathy and how what she does can have a direct impact on others - even if she doesn't think it's a big deal. See the HT and be prepared to be open minded about what happened and see how all the kids can learn from it. If one of the other mum's wants to get upset about labels and how her DD wouldn't do such a thing - well let her and frankly I'd distance myself from that stance as much as possible.

Your concern is your DD and helping her work out how or what made the other girl feel that way. Some of it may be normal classroom stuff, some of it not and may have been deliberate - but having just been through this I honestly think it's a good opportunity for you and your DD to open up discussions about feelings, growing up etc.

This is a really difficult one.

If your dd was feeling forced into playing with Sally and didn't want I because of Sally's behaviour. you should have gone into school and spoke to the teacher and explained that you know Sally is having a hard time of it however your dd is feeling uncomfortable being forced to play with as Sally's is being rude and mean and she doesn't know how to handle it.

If the mother didn't mention the incidents when they happened and just in the meeting when she said she was leaving , then she was bu.

My dd was bullied, badly, it took a few low level incidents before we went in. I mentioned that small things had happen before but I did not expect them to do anything about previous incidents. It's impossible for a school to get to the bottom of it, if it's after the event. It's also impossible to start correct behaviour of its dealt with at the time.

The school is bu to have taken your dd in before speaking to you, given that these are historical allegations. What did they achieve by telling your dd and her friends 'Sally is leaving and it's partly your fault because you did somethings that seemed like bullying weeks ago'.?

What Sally's parents are describing, is bullying. But there isn't much anyone can do it they all insist on denying it. What if they are telling the truth?

Dds bully attempted to blame dd for spreading rumours about him. Except the HT had actually witnessed the bully telling people this information and knew dd hadn't.

If dds HT hadn't witnessed this dd would have kept denying it because it didn't happen. She shouldn't have to admit something that isn't true, just because someone said it.

The simple fact is that because the school were not given an opportunity to sort this at the time, they can't get to the bottom of it.

Your dd could be a bully (in which she is likely to bully someone else) and you will find out.

Sally is the bully and calls bullying when she doesn't get her own way (in which case she will be in the position at her new school)

Or it's just been a clash of personalities (in which case all will be well)

But there is tags much that can be done at the moment.

Sally would be moving schools regardless of what is done, this is definitely not the main reason.

^Being kind doesn't need to mean you will play together.

Dc are also still learning, we can't expect them to be adult about these things. They will get it wrong. That doesn't mean another dc should be labled a bully because they don't like another dc, they need to be taught how to be kind and civil without having to be friends.

I'm am adult. I'm polite and kind to people who I don't particularly like as I'm also professional. More dc need to be taught this valuable life skill.^

This is what I was going to say, but probably not as well. My DD switches and changes up all the time if she wants to play in a group or on her own. She's only in reception but I'm trying to teach her that she can't force herself onto other people, so if they don't want to play she needs to find someone or something else to play with. Because she doesn't like it when someone forces their way onto her.

I was bullied throughout most of my childhood so I don't take this view lightly. Sally may well feel excluded and bullied by those incidents, it doesn't mean her view isn't valid. You should probably talk to the head with an open mind, take it as a learning opportunity for your DD but perhaps you should calmly point out to the school that you feel they may have created this situation by forcing Sally onto your DD (who also felt bullied by it) - that conversation may lead you down a path where you have a clearer view as to whether your DD was engaging in bullying behaviour.

Bullying usually isnt entirely one sided.

It very much to me sounds like a queen bee situation with a group of girls trying to control the class and friendships. Then some children get excluded.

Most children can be bullies in certain circumstances. Leaving one girl without anyone to play with is really horrible and upsetting for her.

In relation to 'forcing' Sally onto the other girls I assumed this is a small school where there arent 3 classes of children to go at.

A good playground rule I picked up from a parenting website is "you can't say you can't play", with the important caveats that

1. the joiner has to join in the existing game, not try to change it or take over (without full agreement from others).

2. it will may be necessary for the children to work out how to take turns so that they can share equipment.

I think this kind of bullying is very common, not because the bullies are intrinsically bad, but because children need to be taught how to behave. Because children often only come across this kind of group dynamic in school, the school needs to constantly reinforce teaching and be vigilant. Many schools don't do this and it sounds as though your dd's school has been caught on the back foot. Blaming children for 'Sally' leaving is ridiculous. The school created/enabled the environment.
They sound as they are trying to frantically enforce an anti-bullying policy after the event.

Oh :( This is just dragging me back to a couple of years ago and remembering how bad the HT handled our situation. The parents still don't think their children were bullying and they were not properly dealt with at all. There are still underlying feelings of resentment all round and it's made friendships very difficult. I'm so angry.

Sorry OP, I'm probably not the best person to be on this thread because hearing people suggest that this type of behaviour isn't bullying just makes me want to shake them. We are still seeing the long term effects of this - anxiety, low self esteem, over sensitivity. It's horrible. The HT is doing the right thing. Please acknowledge what has happened and make sure your daughter understands why her behaviour was wrong.

I can see both sides but I think the HT needs to tread carefully.

It could be that when "Sally" is included that she tries to dominate the group and dictate what happens. No DC is going to put up with that and shouldn't have to. Then Sally may feel she is being bullied without realising that her own selfish behaviour is to blame.

In decades of teaching I've seen this situation so many times. Sometimes the girls are being mean and excluding, sometimes the Sally cries bully when she isn't getting her own way.

It's a tricky line to tread. But ultimately no adult is forced to be friends with anyone and neither should a DC be forced to either.

Typical teacher ^ speaking there. See it, no answer ... sorry ... we tolerate it...

Agree tiggy. There are all sorts of adult situations where you have to get along with and include people, whether or not you would choose to be their best friend or have much in common at all - work colleagues, fellow volunteers, members of the pta, parents of your children's friends, in-laws, clients, friends of friends, spouse's friends.

It's not always easy to know where to draw the line, but it's not at the place where a bunch of 8 year olds might draw the line without guidance.

From the examples given, it is bullying. It also sounds as though you were aware of incidents prior to Sally leaving the school because your OP mentions how it has developed over months. So you were aware that the teacher had spoken to your DD about her interactions with Sally, you just didn't think it was important. However your DD and her friends would have been aware that if the teacher had to raise it with them then it was an issue.

You need to go into the meeting with an open mind because its likely Sally's parents were in touch with the school about the bullying at the same times that the teacher was talking to your DD about it.

I'd want to have a chat with the HT about why you weren't called in earlier. Their approach of speaking directly to your DD has meant the bullying issue has been minimised.

As for your DD, once you are clear on the scale of what happened, I'd consider getting her to write a letter of apology to Sally and possibly use her pocket money to buy Sally a gift or make a donation to a bullying charity.

I want to write this down because of what MythicalKings has posted as it breaks my heart.

I too have been in the position of ‘Sally’s’ parents. In Y6 I took my DS out of school after years of being excluded, ignored, sneered at, told that he couldn’t play. He also had joined the school late and was never accepted by his peers.

But others had problems too. In total, three children left the class because of bullying. Another girl left a few weeks before my son did. After she left, the teacher told the class that no one was allowed to mention her again. It was as if she had become an enemy of the state in a Stalinist regime and was just airbrushed out of history.

When I asked the HT and the class teacher if they would talk to the children after my son left, they said they wouldn’t. They completely refused to accept there was a bullying problem. They insisted DS was perfectly happy and implied I was just some mad woman with a strange agenda. I sobbed in the HT’s office. My reality was being denied. I knew then that his absence would be dealt with, or not dealt with, in the same way as that of the girl mentioned earlier.

So, OP, that’s the alternative course of action for a school to take. Protect the remaining children and the reputation of the class teacher and the school at all cost.

Even though the situation was a very difficult one for DS and for me, I would not have wished the children involved to be punished or made to feel entirely responsible for what happened. But I would have liked them to talk to the whole class about kindness and being inclusive – not just all pretend that my DS had never existed.

OP, what the HT did in your case was very wrong – putting the burden of responsibility for what happened on young children. But it cannot be undone now and I just wonder, supposing bullying really has occurred, if there might be an opportunity for your DD to write to ‘Sally’ or communicate with her in some way as I think it is thoughtless of the school to put your DD in this situation if there is really no possibility of redress.

One example from DS2's school life. I was just reminded of this by some posts here. DS2 and some friends were told off by a lunchtime supervisor for moving their seats when a particular boy sat near them. His DM came up to school and complained. They continued to do it, so it was escalated to the class teacher. The boy had a bit of a reputation, so the class teacher gently probed as to what was going on.

The boy was spitting in their food whenever he sat near them, when they threatened to tell he said he'd get them after school. So they moved away from him.

Things are not always as clear cut as they appear.

We have no idea what the Head actually said. We only have Op's daughter's version.

I don't think it was unprofessional for the Head to talk to the girls. He/she has had an accusation of bullying. Of course, he needs to address that by talking to the alleged perpetrators.

It's not necessarily the case that there's no role for Sally in the game they are playing. That's the excuse they come up with when challenged. Sometimes, the game IS being mean to Sally. Situations are set up to give them the opportunity to exclude her. There was a thread on this recently where the op's daughter had spent the evening making Xmas cards which she intended to make a song and a dance of handing out publicly - a card for everyone except the target.

Even the nicest children can get caught up in this sort of thing when their security depends on keeping in with the ringleader.

I agree with pp's. Go in with an open mind. Your post is very defensive and you do not yet know the whole story.

It is impossible to unravel the truth, particularly as Sally has now left. However, I'd just like to mention a similar situation my child was in.
When 'Sally' arrived, she decided my child was going to be her friend, never mind that my child already had their friendship groups (though my DC's best friend was the child that had left to free up the space Sally took) and got on well with their peers across the year group.
Sally decided no-one else could play with my child, but made out to staff that she was isolated and lonely, and needed my child to play with her because my child was kind.
My child is kind, and could empathise with what being a newcomer was like, so went along with it, but was gradually cut-off and isolated from the rest of the year group, as Sally was pretty aggressive when she wanted to be.
My child had lots of interests in common with Sally, and it had seemed such a good match after losing their best friend.
Gradually my child acted out more and more at home, and became subdued and withdrawn in school; it took them a long time to admit something was wrong.
The situation neatly resolved itself just as we unravelled what was happening by Sally leaving to attend a school nearer home.
Children can be manipulative. Sally's stories to the staff in school were always v plausible, and she had the habit of turning on the tears when things weren't going her way too (which I witnessed out of school when the children were having play dates- Sally's mum always gave in!).
On her own, she was a nice child, but only when things were going her way.

I think from your own description of events as you know them and of your daughter a bit of a chat about being kind to others wouldn't go amiss

I'm amazed how many people feel the behaviour described is not bullying, of course it is. Children of that age have definite friendship groups, cliques, and to be part of that group in the main, then excluded and left out on a whim because they "don't want to play with you today" is extremely hurtful and confusing. It is cruel and manipulative on the part of the instigators.

My DD was exposed to this behaviour from around year 4, the school were rubbish at dealing with it and passed it off as girly squabbles, with a bit of victim blaming thrown in for good measure. Just like some of the attitudes on here.

She is now in year 8 at secondary school, they are all 13 years old and because it wasn't nipped in the bud when it should have been, it has gradually escalated to the point where the school have had to get the local PCSO in to talk to these girls about their treatment of my DD, to emphasise to them that next time it's the police they will be talking to.

Please please please listen to what you are being told by the school OP, I know you feel defensive but proper management now can save a hell of a lot of heartache for you, your daughter and others in the future.

Lots of good advice already OP.

I've been the victim of this sort of thing and I can remember it still. I'm also the parent of a child who has needed a lot of chats about his behaviour to other children. Both are mortifying.

It sounds like bullying to me and also 'queen bee' syndrome ('oh let's not play with Sally, if you want to be in with me you don't play with her either') could be at play (not accusing your DD but worth a thought - I can remember trying to appease a queen bee in this way too).

I think you should go into a meeting willing to talk to the head about your DDs behaviour but I think you should be clear that head should be bringing this sort of thing up at the time and moving on constructively. It is not helpful to accuse and deal with behaviour from weeks or months ago. It's also not helpful to suggest Sally is moving because of their behaviour

I'm surprised at the lack of back up that teachers and head teachers seem to get too - shouldn't we lean towards trusting the teachers and head teachers in the absence of other information? We're assuming the HT doesn't have evidence based on not much except (minimizing) playground hearsay. Why would you get so defensive about your DD possibly excluding another child when it's a life lesson most DC go through - when I was stood up in front of the class for bullying by exclusion my mum wasn't even consulted. My mum didn't march down to the school and complain - she was unimpressed that I'd not been letting the girl join in. There was no nuance and i don't think there needed to be.

We're assuming the HT doesn't have evidence based on not much except (minimizing) playground hearsay.

If he does have evidence, it's likely he was told at the time. Why wasn't the OP called if that's the case.

That's why I think the school handled it badly.

Because they are either taking Sally's and her parents at their word, with no evidence. Then confronted children, with no evidence. Or has known This has been happening and not involved OP earlier.

'confronted' is a strong word - these are overworked teachers and head teachers, so what if all parental parties weren't fully informed at all times? This isn't life or death, except perhaps for the poor critically ill parent of the girl who's been excluded.

tiggytape in the OP it says said another (not involved girl) could come and play but not Sally - another, not any other, an enormous and crucial difference. "Anyone can join our game except Sally" - yes, bullying to say that, but letting Olivia join in but not Sally is not necessarily bullying, it depends how it happens - playing a game that needs, say, even numbers and shout to Olivia "we need 4 for this game, do you want to you play too?" Olivia joins, then Sally comes over and wants to join in too, after Olivia has already been asked and accepted... well its just touch luck, not bullying, if all 4 places are taken...

Saying "nobody play with Sally" is bullying, saying " Sorry I, or we (a small group of friends) don't want to play with Sally today" surely cannot be, or the world has gone a bit mad!

What on earth is Sally learning by being told that if a group of girls don't want to play with you, you go to an adult and they will force them to play with you? That's what she has learnt apparently, which is the fault of the school. She should be being encouraged to find people who do want to play with her.

I have always said to my kids that you cannot make anyone play with you, if X and Y don't want to, go and see if C and D do... two of my 3 kids have experienced this, but I always tell them to try somebody else, it would seem like social suicide to go and insist that the other children play with mine, or ask school to do so (school where we live would assume I'd just landed from Mars if I asked them to intervene in a playground issue like a few girls not wanting to play with mine anyway, if it really was just 3 specific children not wanting to play with mine, not those 3 telling or influencing everyone else not to - that's the difference).

The "you can't say you can't play" is reasonable when it means "you can't say you can't play here - in this room or on this equipment" of course communal spaces and equipment must be shared - but "you can't say you can't play with me is wrong and takes away the autonomy of the child - it is very disrespectful to tell a child or children they have to play with another child (though they must work with them nicely and politely if put in a group with them in the classroom).

The colleague parallel only works for classwork - yes you must accept whoever is put in your group or whoever you are paired with for group work politely and without being personal about not working wanting to work with them etc. Play is different - you have to work with the colleagues you don't much like, but you do not have to include them in your lunch time plans even if you go to lunch with another colleague whose company you enjoy....