To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

In reality though, Piper, after DS1 was born my then DP was asked to give consent for several different procedures for DS. It wasn't because I was incapable of giving that consent, I suspect they just didn't want to walk back down the corridor from SCBU to ask me to consent. They didn't appear to have given any thought at all to whether DP legally had parental responsibility (I now know he wouldn't have had PR until DS was registered) - it was just seen as he was the father so was equally able to consent. That could have had interesting implications though, as you point out!

Fathers had much longer visiting hours when I gave birth in both 2005 and 2012, but weren't allowed to stay overnight. I would not have been happy with other men staying in the same room as me. It was bad enough trying to get into the loo during the day, as fathers and other visitors kept using them despite the signss stating they were for patients use only. I had to wait outside the loo for 20 mins once, with blood pouring down my legs onto the floor, for a guy to finish having a leisurely, stinking great shit at his convenience. I would have discharged myself despite my immobility, any health concerns etc. if I had to sleep with strange men around me. Yes, postnatal care is awful sometimes, but having fathers stay just increases midwives workload as far as I can see.

When I had DC3 they gave me a bed with a clip on cot so that the baby was right beside me. I didn't even have to properly lift him that first night, I could just sort of gently pull him towards me while supporting his head and shoulders which was helpful because I was on a drip still.

Maybe instead of campaigning for badly thought out ideas like partners staying overnight, the WEP should be campaigning for more postnatal staff and better adaptive equipment in the wards to help women who are temporarily less able. Things such as sidecar cots, ready made formula for anyone choosing to FF so they don't have to faff on sterilising and boiling water, a small dish of sealed snacks (raisins, cereal bars, etc) on the bedside table along with the obligatory jug of water for those who can't get up, and so on. Better care would negate the need for partners to stay overnight.

Such an interesting and emotive subject. My DH was allowed to stay with me for my 6 nights on the postnatal ward after my DS difficult birth this year, I was incredibly grateful for this as I was too poorly and incapable of properly caring for the baby alone in those first couple of days and at the time it simply didn't occur to me that anyone would want it any other way.... but now I realise I was lucky in that: all the other partners on the ward at the time were discreet, respectful and reasonably quiet; there were separate toilet facilities for visitors (not the case in all hospitals it seems) and everyone was far too preoccupied with their own babies and partners to take much notice of one another. I'll fully admit I didn't consider the possible security implications, the feelings of other more sensitive women, or the fact that perhaps partners shouldn't be expected to be picking up the slack from overworked healthcare professionals. At the time I just wanted to get well and get home, I didn't care that someone else's DH might see me looking like shit, shuffling to the shower, or overhearing me complain to the midwife about my painful stitches or bleeding nipples etc, but many women DO care, and their voices should be heard. The 'private rooms for all' would be the ideal solution but undoubtedly there just isn't the money to fund it.

It's a big old no from me. I would have been very happy to have DH with me, but not a whole host of other people...the wards were noisy enough as it was! It they want to facilitate this, they need to provide private rooms...for a charge if needs be. If mums are needing better care overnight, there needs to be more staff.

I get that men want to bond and support their wives. Absolutely. But this isn't about them, if their wife was a patient in any other ward they wouldn't be able to stay.

X-post with cardbord, some excellent ideas there.

goodnightdarthvader1

Because if some selfish fucker wanted her dh to stay all night despite there being no private room for them then it impacts on every other woman who actually doesn't want a random bloke sitting near her post giving birth.

And as you would say ffs!

Fanny there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that men feel more engaged and capable of looking after their new babies after staying overnight. My DH is one of those (private room though).

I find it interesting that a few years ago, patient advocacy groups were (quite rightly!) up in arms about mixed wards/bays, and yet the idea of allowing men to stay 24/7 on postnatal wards is somehow more acceptable.

I 100% agree that campaigns should be focused more on improving staffing/equipment on the post natal wards so that new mums didn't require the practical support of their other half being there. I appreciate that the emotional support a partner can offer is different, but can't really see how that can be addressed to everyone's satisfaction unless everyone has their own private room - which I think is financially and logistically impossible sadly.

The thing is boom, we don't actually have any evidence of causation there, whereas we do know that if women feel uncomfortable with a strange man there, it's the strange man's presence who caused that. Or that if a man mistreats his partner when staying overnight, that particular episode wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been present. I realise it's not 'fair' because it's more difficult to establish causation with your claim than it is with those who feel frightened, embarrassed etc due to men being there. The nature of the latter is that the only evidence we need or can possibly acquire is the accounts of the women themselves, because we're talking about feelings. Whereas if you're claiming that doing a certain thing is more likely to make people behave differently, that can be empirically and independently verified. But that's the nature of the task the WEP have chosen to open up for themselves.

My DH snores like a freight train. I can well imagine how popular we would have been if DH had stayed.

This is a crap idea. WEP have been one massive disappointment.

If the WEP didn't campaign for this they would be accused of being the Womans Superiority Party.

As has been every true feminist since the days of the suffragists.

There is no reason not to continue the fine old tradition of weathering the accusations of paranoid males.

If you found a feminist party and men don't complain, then you are quite probably doing it wrong.

@janedoe: I don't see why I have to be traumatized to not want men look at my genitals? There's this thing called privacy.

Besides, two out of three female gynecologists I consulted were horrible. One of them had a picture of the pope on a sort of altar in her examination room, and the attitude to match.

My only solace was that she probably spoke from a place of postmenopausal regret when she advised me to have children asap. Coming from a man, that would have been creepy as hell. Coming from her, it was just weird.

Cardbordeaux absolutely

I really struggled getting DD in and out of the plastic box crib thing, it was way too high up to be comfortable for me. A HCW came and moved it closer to my bed which I'm sure she thought was helpful but it actually made it harder. I didn't have the energy to shift it back. I kept DD in bed with me, even at night (made it safe, made a barrier with pillows etc; I barely slept but at least I could reach her) and some midwife came and moved her back into the box while we were both asleep. (I should add that when the same midwife came round later she mentioned nothing about safety concerns, and there was nothing in my notes either, so I don't think that can have been why she did it.) Sidecar crib would have been an absolute dream. And for someone to bring round the evening meal rather than having to go and get it...what are you supposed to do with your baby in the meantime?

I think the point a lot of posters are missing is that this is a policy aimed at men as well as women. WEP's strap line is 'because equality is better for everyone' and they believe that male partners are not visitors they are also a parent of the new baby and should receive certain privileges to reflect that. If we really want men to play an equal part in parenting it doesn't do any of us much good to start off by excluding them. Mumsnet is awash with complaints about useless, lazy dads. If we really want equality we need to stop being martyrs and start changing the rules. More professional help for mums on the wards is great of course but why work so hard to exclude fathers. I will certainly be ordering my husband to vote for WEP. LOL!

Does anyone truly believe that completely lazy, selfish, do nothing dads would have been any different if they had been on the ward with their partners after the babies birth?

Plenty of men manage perfectly fine to be engaged and devoted fathers without a few days in hospital with their partners. Plenty of men manage to be devoted engaged fathers when the child is not theirs and they haven't been there right from birth. Because they are decent, good, unselfish people.

If you want men to understand their responsibilities as fathers it has to go back far further than just after the baby is born. Selfish lazy people become that way because of a life time of pandering, it takes a lot more than a few days on a ward to sort them out.

And the ones that are selfish and lazy and obnoxious are the very ones who would make life a total misery for the other women on the ward who are recovering from childbirth, because they wouldn't know how to behave considerately.

If we really want men to play an equal part in parenting it doesn't do any of us much good to start off by excluding them.

Home births. Just saying.

The solution cannot be to deprive women who just gave birth of much-needed sleep, not to mention the many worse things that could happen with men there overnight.

Besides, if you want men to play an equal part in parenting, giving them paid paternity leave that they cannot shove onto the mother is the way to go.

The few days in the hospital are not going to change anything.

Does anyone truly believe that completely lazy, selfish, do nothing dads would have been any different if they had been on the ward with their partners after the babies birth?

Nope.

Plenty of parents of both sexes manage to be good and committed parents even though their children have to stay in the hospital in an incubator.

At the end of the day, the women are in hospital because they are patients and the men aren't. Other wards don't have people there all the time (except the children's ward.) Would all these men have to be given beds, food, shower/toilet facilities too? Surely that's unworkable?

Don't any of these partners have other children to care for, work to go to, a house to sort out ready for the mum & baby's return???

Again though houseofmirth, there isn't actually any evidence that dads staying overnight will make them more likely to play an equal part in parenting. That's just something some people have hypothesised. Whereas there is evidence that their presence on the wards will endanger a small number of women and bother lots more. We also know that there are dads who pull their weight, luckily my own DH included, despite not having been allowed to be on the postnatal ward 24/7 (and indeed plenty of mums who do this even if they've been separated from baby in the early days).

Now, personally I'm sceptical that men being there for 24 hours for the first couple of days is going to solve all, or indeed any problems we face with some fathers being useless. Like a pp, I don't think some men don't do certain things because they're excluded from them, and I don't think that those dads who are lazy, obnoxious and abusive during visiting hours are suddenly going to change their stripes if they stay overnight. However, I'm open to evidence disproving my suspicion. There just isn't any. If there was, then we could have a discussion about whether it ought to supercede the evidence that some women really don't want dads there overnight.

yanbu

not everyone has a partner or a partner that can be there and even if they do it is not fair that other women are having to share the ward with men they do not know. its bad enough when there are lots of people about at visiting times. its a time for women to rest as much as possible before they go home not sure I would have felt I could rest with a strange man the other side of the curtain being there all night

why work so hard to exclude fathers.

You haven't bothered to read the thread, then?

Haven't read the whole thread and not in the UK so just popping up to ask: does this mean people are on a ward with others after giving birth with all the new babies? How do you sleep? Makes me glad of US healthcare (not often one can say that).

Yes, Terra, that is what it means. And you don't sleep, at least not well.

Yes usually, although not always. There are some private rooms but they're usually allocated on the basis of need. For example I had one when one of mine was in special care. And you don't sleep much.

I would love my dh there. It also wouldn't bother me how many other men were there tbh. I nearly gave birth in a lift last time where everyone could see if they wished.

I checked out 1 hour after dc2s birth,and 5 hours after dc3 as I won't stay without dh.

I think WEP are off the mark on this issue. I hope they start listening to women's voices and actually start thinking issues through.