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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"Sharia taxi driver told me i was disgustingly dressed" says actress.

435 replies

HelenaDove · 24/11/2015 00:56

It apparently happened after an awards ceremony.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331164/Sharia-taxi-driver-told-disgustingly-dressed-BBC-star-Frances-Barber-tells-accosted-Uber-employee-showbusiness-awards-ceremony.html

OP posts:
TheNewStatesman · 26/11/2015 02:11

"I suspect a lot of people will balk at some suggested solutions to our theocrat crisis, but seeing them as puritanical theocrats and not Muslims makes the situation a lot clearer -- it takes the emotional heat out of the issue, and removes the identity politics."

Good call.

DeoGratias · 26/11/2015 06:48

Werk, yes. That is a good summary.
The issue is that they are not just keeping their views to themselves but seek to impose them. I couldn't care less if they are white, black, Orthodox jews, muslims or anything else. It is when it starts to have an impact on others, when your child is the only atheist in its class and is at school with children who think women are second class and of course even worse when people want to kill others and impose a caliphate (simple black and white thoughts which appeal to teenagers) that there is a problem.

My local Brethren group keep themselves to themselves. The girls cover their hair, they have high walls around the church area and I assume women obey men but there aren't a lot of them, they don't have an impact on those around them, you hardly ever see them and they aren't planning bombing campaigns or seeking to impose their views on others; ditto London's orthodox jews.

So I hope the UK can continue to be as tolerant as we have always been which is one reason people prefer here even to France but that we don't allow sexism and other base values of these awful rigid theocracies, the values perhaps appropriate for deserts 2000 years ago but not for today, to prevail or even unduly to impinge on us and of course we seek to stop the breeding of bombers in our midst. We have a very high number of home grown men and women who have left the UK to fight for ISIS. It is not one lone wolf and it is fairly likely that for every one who has gone there will be about 10 at least who support that action.

Brioche201 · 26/11/2015 08:27

But the inconvenient truth is that these putitanical theocrats are Muslims!!

Brioche201 · 26/11/2015 08:31

Political correctness is the greatest threat to this country

DeoGratias · 26/11/2015 09:00

Many of them are, yes. The few who aren't are the very very small in number other sects but there are so few of those and they tend to be so inward looking they do not have an impact on the rest of us. On the other hand there are a good few feminist muslims and plenty who don't cover up at all by the way and I don't just mean on the head. Plenty are muslim and wear similar shorter skirts to the rest of us and believe in equality for men and women and force their men to do childcare and house cleaning. Let us not tar them all with the sexist brush and the morals of deserts 2000 years ago.

DrasticAction · 26/11/2015 12:22

Kat

"Rape is not permitted in islam in muslim countries its literally a death sentence"

There is talk that the taking of the slaves is in accordance with the Prophet? Can you clarify please. This is how ISIS have justified taking and enslaving and raping hundreds of Yadizi women.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/isis-jihadi-bride-claims-forced-sex-with-yazidi-girls-is-never-rape-because-koran-condones-it-10271703.html

"A jihadi bride whose husband took a Yazidi girl as a slave has claimed sex with kidnapped women is never rape because it is an Islamic practice inspired by the Prophet himself"

www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/middleeast/isis-enshrines-a-theology-of-rape.html?_r=0

"QADIYA, Iraq — In the moments before he raped the 12-year-old girl, the Islamic State fighter took the time to explain that what he was about to do was not a sin. Because the preteen girl practiced a religion other than Islam, the Quran not only gave him the right to rape her — it condoned and encouraged it, he insisted"

DrasticAction · 26/11/2015 12:24

booyka

I dont think its completely wrong at all.

Its very likely that a man who is abusive and violent to his white sex slave is also being violent at home.

One wonders how easy it would be for such a wife to speak out though.

Werksallhourz · 26/11/2015 15:06

Brioche, the problem is that as soon as you start saying "these terrorists are Muslim", you will get sheds of people saying "but they aren't proper Muslims" ... and we end up caught in the web of what is and isn't Islam, and non-theocratic Muslims start to get defensive and the whole thing turns into a shitshow.

It also plays into the theocrats hands because they can then turn round and say "See! They call Muslims terrorists! They are at war with all Muslims. If you don't join us for protection, they will start shooting you in the streets!"

The fact is that a certain "zone" of Sunni Islam is going through a particularly brutal, multi-faceted, sectarian crisis that has been provoked by various postwar political agendas on the part of both Middle-Eastern and Western powers. Because of the location of this "zone" through Europe, in countries lining the Med and controlling the Bosphorus and Suez Canal, amid key energy exporters, among other religious and non-religious communities this crisis now affects the UK in a way that a Sunni sectarian crisis in Indonesia would not.

The thing is that we cannot cannot solve a sectarian crisis in Sunni Islam. That is work for Sunni Muslims inhabiting this zone, not us. The UK state has no authority in this area. As such, there is no point engaging with that aspect of the issue. We can do no good, and probably only harm our own interests.

Instead, we have to define how this crisis affects us in language that nails the problem but avoids us being dragged into a huge disagreement that we have no authority or power to solve.

Furthermore, how we perceive and define a problem is vital in terms of how we comprehend and solve a problem. It's the old buggy whip vs. accelerator concept, or ice vs. cooling agent. We have to ask ourselves: "what actually is this thing? What do it do?"

In short, it matters how we label something.

Now the UK has a history of dealing with puritanical theocrats pushing for power and control, and using aggression and violence to further their ends (and also the kind of climate that then creates that then allows for other nefarious individuals to get away with disturbing behaviour). It's a "known known", to nick a rather useful notion from Rumsfeld. We know what has worked in the past and what hasn't. We know how these movements and phenomena end up. If we perceive the issue through this lens, all that knowledge becomes immediately available to us and possible ways forward appear. It also becomes clear what constitutes good policy and bad policy in this regard, and explains clearly what has gone wrong -- for example, with Trojan Horse schools.

But trying to deal with the consequences of a Sunni Muslim sectarian crisis that is playing out on British streets and in British homes, sometimes with explosive results, involving identity politics and minority ethnic groups well, the UK has no historical or contemporary experience of this whatsoever. It is a "known unknown" or even an "unknown unknown". Nobody really seems to have a clue how to deal with it -- because they are seeing it through the "Sunni sectarian" lens and seeing a picture they cannot comprehend.

But if you change the lens, you change the picture. And it is time to change the lens.

DeoGratias · 26/11/2015 17:36

For many muslims in relation to rape in marriage the law is like English law before 1990 - a husband cannot rape his wife although he can certainly be guilty of other violent offences against her.

Preminstreltension · 26/11/2015 18:06

werksallhours that is a fantastic post.

I do actually get frustrated with the "but these people aren't Muslims" claim as it isn't factually true and lets that part of Islamic thinking that permits this sort of perversion - and the people who toy with that sort of thinking from the safety of the UK - off the hook. However, you make a very good point about identity politics.

TBH I wish we had a stronger moderate Muslim voice in this country but we don't. There are notably few Arabs in public life, for example, and they might be the people who would otherwise lead the rallying cry for moderate Islam in Britain against the Isis theology but we don't really have a strong cohort of leading Arabs in the UK. My Arab boss always notes that the only Arabs that get to go on TV news programmes to comment about these events are mainly the mad, weird ones who shout about Israel. The calm, thoughtful, educated people like him are very rare

We also of course have the desperately craven relationship with Saudi and Qatar and while we let them speak from both sides of their mouth, as it were, the chance of a powerful and vocal Muslim coaltion of anti-Isis people around the world is slim.

Booyaka · 26/11/2015 21:06

Drastic, you're (deliberately) missing the point. If he had been beating up his wife or abusing her or his daughters or anybody else and they'd reported it then it would have been investigated and taken seriously by the authorities. In fact, a lot of the women's groups who are now saying 'Well their families were probably victims too' know full well that type of was taken extremely seriously and there were well funded specialised local groups with an awful lot of clout who dealt only with asian domestic abuse victims and also effective strategies for dealing with

But the victims of the crimes had literally nowhere to go. If you phoned the police they ignored you at best, at worst they would arrest you.

If you went to social service the best you could hope for was that they would ignore you. On the odd occasion they actually took action and put girls into care that was actually the worst thing that could happen. Because social services effectively delivered the girls directly into the hands of their abusers and facilitated the abuse.

If parents took matters into their own hands they were arrested.

ONE agency in Rotherham took the abuse claims seriously. And they were closed down as a result.

Comparing the two crimes is like saying that because white people were also victims of crime by the Stephen Lawrence murderers the whole cover up into his death was irrelevant and white people were victims too.

You simply cannot compare a crime which may or may not have happened, wasn't reported and if it was victims would have been properly supported and the crime investigated with crimes where for DECADES those crimes were ignored, covered up and actually facilitated by the authorities. You just can't compare people choosing not to report crimes to people having nowhere to report crime to.

I don't think you have any idea of the amount of lives that have been ruined by this and continue to be ruined by this to this day. It was literally Kafkaesque. Can you imagine calling the police and telling them that your 12 year old daughter is being drugged and raped by gangs of middle aged men and them calling you a racist and threatening to arrest you? Can you imagine trying to rescue your daughter from that situation and being arrested? And then getting suspended from your job as a result? And having your house and property attacked in revenge and the police don't care. The rest of your children threatened. They think it's your fault for interfering with your daughters choice to be gang raped? Can you imagine living in a community where it is not safe for young girls to do simple things like going shopping, to a park or have a burger?

That's quite a rant. But let me distil it into a nutshell for you: If you rang the police in Rotherham and you were an Asian victim they would help you. If you were not they did not want to know, and in fact would actively try and stop you getting any help or stopping the abuse. And that went on for decades.

Booyaka · 26/11/2015 21:40

*That should have said for dealing with forced marriages. In fact, during the period the girls were being abused Rotherham was very proud of it's record for dealing with forced marriage and honour based violence.

DrasticAction · 26/11/2015 21:52

Booyaka, Your misunderstanding my posts.

I agree with every word in all your posts.

I was just pointing out what some one said from the Mulims womans aid in a documentary I saw.

I am not comparing any crimes or saying one was worse than the other at all.

I was pointing out the that the PC elements who ignored the white girls complaints in some cases were also probably leaving the wives to it - abuse as well.

I don't think you have any idea of the amount of lives that have been ruined by this and continue to be ruined by this to this day. It was literally Kafkaesque

I understand it all very well, too well.

It was just another side to this I wanted to point out.

www.theguardian.com/law/2010/jul/05/sharia-law-religious-courts

^ wives living in this sort of environment, with no idea of rights or laws - would be vulnerable to abuse and not be able to speak out.

bimandbam · 26/11/2015 21:59

I think it is very difficult for anyone to comprehend what happened in Rotherham. Unless they were directly affected or knew someone that was.

What I tried to say earlier Booyaka says much better. Some (many I would suggest though I will be careful of my words) Pakistani men view white girls differently to muslim girls. So it stands to reason that they will treat them differently.

I am not saying that some muslim women wont suffer abuse at the hands of their husbands. But so do some British women.

The biggest issue in Rotherham was that it was covered up. By the agencies that should have helped.

My dsis got pg at the age of 15 to her 17 year old boyfriend. This was about 18 years ago. Ss was all over our family like a rash. Her boyfriend was almost charged with statutory rape. The only reason he wasn't was because my dsis begged them not to and because he remained in a relationship with her throughout.

A friend of hers got pg at 14. To a Pakistani. Ss did 1 interview and discharged her completely as 'she was sexually mature at 13'. Yes. She was having sex at 13 because she was fucking groomed by paedophiles.

I don't know the answers. I know that even writing the word Pakistani makes me feel odd. It's an 'insult' to refer to someone as a Pakistani and we must say muslims or asians. This is what is drilled into us and our dcs.

We must not ever speak badly of the muslims. We must not stereotype. We must not ever say anything derogative about their religion or culture. We must allow their religion and beliefs to be a part of their lives and infringe on ours. We must never offend them with a different religion.

My dd was 10 before I saw her do a nativity and that was at a salvation army youth group. Yet her school celebrated eid and ramadan every year.

I don't think Rotherham is extraordinary. I think this has happened for many years in other places too.

Equality is all good unless it is just for minorities. Equality should be for everyone.

insameboattoo · 26/11/2015 22:13

Yes it scares me.

Booyaka · 26/11/2015 23:34

No, drastic, you don't understand at all. PC elements weren't 'leaving their wives to it'. They provided a well run, well funded framework for those wives to access should they have wished to.

That link to the article about Shari courts is utterly irrelevant. Nobody in this country can be legally forced to accept the judgement of a Sharia court unless they choose to via arbitration. Any woman who is threatened with anything by a sharia court has the full force of the British legal system, and if necessary the police to protect them from that should they wish to.

It's like banging my head against a brick wall. Do you not understand there was literally nothing they could do to stop them? They couldn't even run away, people moved away or sent their kids to relatives in another town, but they would just come and get them.

I just don't understand why people just don't get the difference between choosing not to get help and there being no help that you can get.

TalkingintheDark · 26/11/2015 23:51

Equality should be for everyone.

Hear, hear, bimandbam.

Flowers for you and booyaka for all you've witnessed, and for all the girls who've suffered so much because of this wilful denial.

OTheHugeManatee · 27/11/2015 15:02

Some really hard-hitting posts here from booyaka and bimandbam Sad

DeoGratias · 27/11/2015 16:45

Indeed (although in practice women brought up in sexist cultures where men rule don't always exercise their rights) and that can be the underlying harm of Isam - cover your head because your female and your brother doesn't have to. Curb and curtail yourself and that is a drip drip feed of difference and inferiority which 2000 years ago in deserts protected women who would otherwise have been in danger but today is morally wrong and inappropriate and thankfully we live in a country where we are allowed to say abandon your faith, there is no God just as others can say to me I shall burn in hell.

Bambambini · 27/11/2015 16:47

Booyaka -

Drastic is not arguing with you - no one is disbelieving you, I don't think you are comprehending her posts. I think the point she is making that these men were possibly being abusive to the women in their homes. No one is comparing crimes but I think it's possible that some of them were unpleasant characters to their wives and possibly daughters. These wives and daughters might not have sought help due to them possibly being conditioned into thinking they had to put up and shut up. Not wanting to bring shame to the family etc.

I have Pakistani Muslim friends married to their older first cousins. When they were being treated badly, and sometimes physical abuse - their family (mother, father, brothers etc) gave no support. They had seen the same happen to their mother. They were expected to just get in with it and not make a fuss. They did eventually leave bad divorce their husbands - but only with the help of a more enlightened Imam from their mosque who was the only one to stand up and speak for them. I've been in the verge phoning the police as I hadn't seen or heard of my friend for a few days and I was worried her family had done something to her. It is not easy for these women to speak out to the authorities.

howtorebuild · 27/11/2015 16:53

The more I learn about this Prophet the more confused I am, he has such a huge following. Slaves now on top of his youngest wife was in single figures when he was middle aged. Shock

bimandbam · 27/11/2015 17:36

Bambambina the point Booyaka was making wasn't that these women would be scared of involving the police etc. It was that if they had involved the authorities they would have been believed and helped.

The English girls and their families did involve the police and social services and various other organisations and were ignored or even worse threatened with repercussions if they continued with their complaints.

I don't doubt that some muslim women suffer terribly. But when they are brave enough to reach out the help is there.

It's 2 completely different issues really. Both involving the abuse and exploitation of women. But treated very differently. And that is the issue.

Booyaka · 27/11/2015 18:21

Bambambini, this platitude people trot out that 'Asian women were victims too' is one of the most hurtful things that victims and their families ever hear.

Because they didn't go through what these girls and their families went through. It denies the unique awfulness of what happened to them and also minimizes the seriousness of the failings of the authorities.

If something did happen to the wives of these men, then yes, that is awful. But in reality it's something that goes on every day, people post on this site about things like that every day. And I'm sure most people realise that the state cannot be expected to know each and every woman who is being abused automatically and unless approached for help they can't really do much. It's the same for most women who are in that situation regardless of what colour or religion they are or where they live.

What happened in Rotherham (and some other British towns) was different from that because the mechanisms which were supposed to keep them safe were entirely taken away from them.

They ARE comparing those crimes because they are giving those crimes not just parity in awfulness (which may be the same between the two) but also claiming that they had parity as victims of the systematic cover up and even facilitation of the abuse by the authorities and that's not true. There is a very big difference between people who do not report crimes and people who report them to multiple agencies and beg for help but are actually turned away and in some cases persecuted even for asking. It really is a way of trying to minimize the awfulness of that cover up and how serious it was when you deny that it was anything worse than an unreported case, or by pretending that what happened to them was in any way on the same level as people who had help available which they simply did not take.

HelenaDove · 27/11/2015 18:33

Some very insightful posts here.

I cant believe some were trying to claim that not seeking help and trying to get help but being ignored and/or persecuted for it is the same Confused Sad

OP posts:
nicecarpet · 27/11/2015 18:39

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