"Sharia taxi driver told me i was disgustingly dressed" says actress.

[HelenaDove]

It apparently happened after an awards ceremony.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331164/Sharia-taxi-driver-told-disgustingly-dressed-BBC-star-Frances-Barber-tells-accosted-Uber-employee-showbusiness-awards-ceremony.html

We have a senior exec of Uber stay at our Hotel regularly and he never uses an Uber taxi - always asks us to book cabs though a couple of local firms.

If even he doesnt use them then I aint!

Fair enough owl.

Penny that is extremely interesting (I wouldn't touch uber with a bargepole anyway, though)

Penny that says it all.

the Rotherham gang were also similar again I'm not likely to know them or of them.

Not sure how I can be expected to report these people as I will never be in their social circle.

You might not have been in their social circle, but believe me, the people who were in their social circles (and pretty much everybody locally who wasn't in deliberate denial) knew exactly what was going on and said nothing. Again, this is not anecdotal. The Jay report says that senior Muslim male figures in Rotherham, specifically Imams and councillors actually actively prevented the crimes being investigated. She described them as 'barriers', not conduits. As far as Rotherham Muslim women's organisations go, the Jay report said that their attitude was 'we knew, but nobody asked us about it so we just didn't say anything'.

But this is kind of immaterial to the original point of the thread. Which is that Frances Barber had an unpleasant comment made to her by a taxi driver she believes was a Muslim. A few people said they'd had similar experiences. Some other people said that nobody should be allowed to discuss experiences like that because they think it's racist and indulged in a bit of victim blaming. Then it was pointed out that there have been a some unpleasant cases involving Muslim taxi drivers with a poor attitude towards women and those cases had been covered up using exactly the same type of victim blaming and accusations of racism.

I'm perfectly happy to believe that you and the vast majority of UK Muslims don't know anybody involved with either sex crimes or terrorism so would never be in a situation where you would have to discuss it or report people. But at the same time I don't think we should have to pretend that when these things have happened, communities have reported them, especially when there are official reports saying they didn't.

And also, I think it's slightly ironic that this thread has now moved on to discussing where we're discussing whether or not Muslims should be obliged to report things. When it started off about a white British woman who many people didn't think should be allowed to relate what happened to her. If you're going to take the position that Muslims didn't report things because they didn't know about them, then surely it's even more important that non-Muslims who have these kind of experiences should be able to say so without accusations of racism? Because otherwise you just end up with exactly the situation that occurred in Rotherham: people who aren't Muslim being silenced, nobody else reporting, and horrific things are allowed to continue as a result?

In the dreaded fail last week there was an article about a Muslim man and his family in the UK who was beaten up for converting to christanity. This goes against our value of religious freedom and I just don't understand it.

We have a senior exec of Uber stay at our Hotel regularly and he never uses an Uber taxi - always asks us to book cabs though a couple of local firms.

Wow, I will mention that to some representatives at uber when I meet them in a tech meeting in the states next week, it might help in there fears that a lot of the local cabbies are moonlighting as uber drivers, over there and here in the uk.

Why would they worry about cabbies moonlighting?

But this is kind of immaterial to the original point of the thread. Which is that Frances Barber had an unpleasant comment made to her by a taxi driver she believes was a Muslim. A few people said they'd had similar experiences. Some other people said that nobody should be allowed to discuss experiences like that because they think it's racist and indulged in a bit of victim blaming. Then it was pointed out that there have been a some unpleasant cases involving Muslim taxi drivers with a poor attitude towards women and those cases had been covered up using exactly the same type of victim blaming and accusations of racism.

Indeed Boo. Everything other than 'all muslims good' or 'all muslims bad' gets shouted down, though.

There's no room for sophisticated real-world 'people are all individuals' type discussion here.

I don't doubt that this happened to Frances Barber.

But I do doubt that the Daily Mail would have picked it up for a story if they didn't see it as an opportunity to 'subtly' push their islamaphobic agenda. They're not a publication known for sticking up for sexism (quite the reverse!) so I would say they've only done so here because they've found a group they despise more to have a go at.

I also think Barber could just have tweeted that she had experienced misogyny and sexism by an uber cab driver. Less sensationalist perhaps but that's the truth of it. It's unacceptable but the driver's race and religion is irrelevant to that unacceptability.

Well, Penny is apparently trying to highlight that there is an inherent problem with uber that even senior execs don't believe in their business model and to only use local cab firms, there is also a lot of talk that a considerate majority of local cabbies are moonlighting for uber, so there will be a ven diagram of dodgyness involved.

I mean you have to ignore the thousands of stories of inappropriate behaviour that has reached the local courts/papers involved with local cab firms to make definitive statements like penny did, don't you?

For crying out loud, it’s the Daily Hate. Tomorrow they’ll have found out that the taxi driver has 14 kids, is claiming benefit illegally and works on the side as a house valuer who’s deliberately lowering house prices.

bimandbam you have made a very intelligent heartfelt post. I know sympathy wont mean anything but i honestly feel sick at the thought of how those young girls suffered and their families, and continue to.

I also agree they closed ranks but i dont think it is a religious issue. Rape is not permitted in islam in muslim countries its literally a death sentence. Relationships outside marriage arent either. this was a sex ring praying on children they would be hung in a muslim country if tgere was one that practised their laws fairly. No one wud say islamwas barbaric then would they?( thats another debate ppl dont start on this thread)

It is definitely a cultural issue. To be fair indians have the same backward views on women so do older bangladeshis.They are the same ppl and culture seperated via civil war. Other asians may not agree with me because they want no association or are in denial. But we share similar foods,language, dress, morals . Unfortunately older generations do have lowly attitudes on girls. I say those from india, pakistan and bangladesh.

I felt many growing up heard many from neighbours and aunties.

They prefer male babies because boys usually bring their wife to parents home and they take care of parents in old age. Thereby the boys wealth stays in the family
Girls are a burden financially costs more to marry them due to dowry and ateam style heavy gold sets. Then all her white goods furniture to kit out new home, nowadays people demand houses to accept a pproposal crazy lol

if a girl suggests to her parents boy x is harrassing her at school rather than getting in touch with school or boy they will think well she must be doing something to attract him i.e her fault soon as shes done school marry her off. I had stalker i quit work because i was afraid but i was more afraid if parents found out i thght theyd blame me. They never voiced any such views but id heard it from other elders so i thought it was best as a precaution, verysad i know.

If a girl tells her parent she was attacked by cousin they will tell her not to break up famiky unit keep quiet we'll keep you safe from him but dont out him.
this is lenient ironically because some parents will again blame girl and shell be emotionally blackmailed to get married young.

White women are seen as promiscuous and older men in particular lack respect for them.but ironically young asian lads will happily date such women in secret atuni, but most will not marry them. Shame, or fear of parents pr coz theyre scum andcwant virgin even though theyre not one themselves?

If in a physically abusive marriage again ignored or urged to tolerate it to save face. Huge srigma to be divorcee woman if u have kids too life is over,pathetic right?
divorced men no problem, kids tricky but doable can easily remarry. I know someone beaten to death only now family are plagued with guilt but its too late.

If caught dating clubbing or wearing immodest clothing for all community to see education is finished. If an asian guy does it its ok hes enjoying youth they will turn blindceye, double standards?

These are a few examples in pakistani,bangladeshi and indian communities. Look at the rape crimes in india and attitudes towards womens dress. I noticed in areas where kids are raised only in their community mix with their so called kind exclusiely, the younger generations will actually start believing their parents views and pass it on to their kids. They really think theyre living in village in parents homeland with such backward attitudes.

So it doesnt surprise me they closed ranks theyd close ranks against their own daughters.i think its a cultural issue. I also agree the race card was used to close all doors to responsibility, debate argument and prevention of such crimes. Theyre in denial the shame of admitting they have raised such boys that have a priveleged status is too much to admit.

The only major difference with pakistani community is they still practise cousin marriages this may explain why they closed ranks more. Theyre all related family members they felt obligated to keep quiet. Im sure many wanted to but the consequences for women are great. They could lose their kids and home, not justiying it hut how many women would be willing to lose those things?

Of course not all asians hold these values but all asians know someone in their extensive families or communities that do. If any asian tells me otherwise theyre lying.

What a thoroughly honest post, Katarzyna79 - thank you very much indeed for that invaluable insight

Agree with Puzzled Honest and insightful.

"countries and those who follow the Islamic faith i.e Muslims the law is taken from the holy text used in the Muslim faith ...so to try to distance the word 'Sharia' from Muslims does not wash."

I thought the poster was making the point that some Muslims can have issues with sharia law. There are many people who are "Muslim" and have no choice about being labelled Muslim and being forced to abide by the rules their country subscribes to as Islamic. Some Muslims believe and practice and some don't. Some identify as being culturally Muslim but don't really follow the rules, or just do it lightly - like many from other religions.

Thankfully we live in a country where you can report these kinds of comments. In a sense it's like the Proudman everyday sexism incident. She reported a sexist comment about her linkedin photo - the kind of thing we get all the time but because it's not rape we don't report and yet it does chip away at you all the time that men make these kind of comments. It must be the same for those subjected to racism. We need to allow people to gather publicity if they want to and the person in the wrong is the person making the comment in the first place - yes they have freedom of speech to make it which I support but they make the comment in the full knowledge in a liberal democracy we can then report and spread the comment far and wide.

On the wider issue of women's rights in certain communities against we need to keep working on that. I have never understood in the UK in 2015 when huge numbers of Indian origin women are lawyers, doctors and the like or have MBAs etc it can still be a negative to have a daughter. The answer is doing to be in continuing to ensure women are well educated and earn a lot, as ever so women are not seen as some sort of burden. We are getting there. I just hope importing 1m muslim syrians to Europe does not mean we go backwards in terms of women's rights.

Katarzyna79 thank you for your post.

In Rotherham I know that it is not just white girls who suffered and still suffer. Muslim girls and women suffer too. In all the ways you describe. Maybe even more so.

I have actually found most elder muslim men to be outwardly respectable to me and mine. And the younger second and third generation men to be the ones causing issue. But obviously that attitude is passed down. Maybe older men are just more discreet.

I can understand the desire of some not to encourage the promulgation of stories that might encourage hostility towards innocent members of a religion or culture. Because let's face it, this isn't really about ethnicity: it's about ideology, specifically an ideology about how women should behave, that is typically transmitted along with particular religious or cultural affiliations. I get that

But where elements of a religion or culture impact negatively on the hard-won and still fragile freedoms of women in THIS culture I say we have to speak out. The rights of different religions or cultures to go about their business unmolested do not and should not take precedence over the right of ALL women in this country to go through life free from harassment and misogynistic abuse.

Otherwise what are we saying, really? That it's women, once again, who have to give ground so that every other minority in the entire universe should have its rights respected ahead of women's rights. Case in point: a crime in the UK can be considered aggravated by racism but not by sexism. Shouldn't we challenge all forms of discrimination? And if we're forced to choose between discriminating against women and discriminating against a culture that just happens to be pretty fucking misogynistic, do we really want to take the side of a misogynistic culture?

One more thought. This thread has been peppered with bien-pensant types saying 'OMG OMG OMG you can't say that it's a racist generalisation'. This put me in mind of the interminable debates over on FWR over whether or not it's OK for feminists to say 'Men are violent towards women' when in fact not all men - or even a majority of men - are violent towards women.

The argument, as I understand it, is that despite the fact that not all men are like that (NAMALT) it remains true that men as a class are violent towards women as a class. Therefore if we take away the ability for women to speak about men as a class - to generalise about them - on the grounds of sexism or a vague liberal sense that 'stereotypes' and 'generalisations' are bad then it becomes impossible to talk about the bad stuff and its root causes, and so those feminists might as well just fuck off back to the kitchen sink.

I think we need to bear something similar in mind when talking about cultures that are inimical to the relatively liberal, tolerant and gender-equal culture we have in the UK. Because it is true that, as a class, South Asian Muslim male immigrants to the UK (NASouthAsianMuslimMALT) have more repressive attitudes towards women and gender equality than the general UK population. And we have to be able to talk about it, and we have to be able to take a stand for the culture we'd like to see prevail (hopefully, for me at least, the one where I don't get called a whore for walking down the street unaccompanied).

Otherwise, as bimandbam has pointed out, we're sleepwalking into racist segregation simply because ordinary people - who don't want to live like that but don't feel they have permission to discuss it because NASAMMALT and generalising is racist - move to neighbourhoods where they feel their daughters are less at risk.

You can still discuss it without generalising and saying ALL Muslims are like this..or ALL Muslims do this.

Quite different from saying "you can't say that" at all.

I do believe saying "some young Pakistani men think white women are slags" (as said on thread is very different to saying that ALL do.

Language is important.

Strawberry, can I personally apologise to you for my behaviour yesterday and anyone else I offended. You were right and I was wrong. I was being narrow minded and not thinking about the connotations of my posts. It's given me alot to think about, thank you.

That video, "Muslamic ray-guns"? Isn't he saying Muslamic rape gangs?

You can still discuss it without generalising and saying ALL Muslims are like this..or ALL Muslims do this.

I don't think anyone on this thread has been doing that. Or if they did, it's been politely pointed out. But there has also been a remarkable amount of cynicism (not to mention victim-blaming) about Frances Barber's story that basically boils down to 'NAMuslimsALT so stop even associating the idea of Muslims with a misogynistic incident'.

This might be well-intentioned and rooted in a desire to prevent innocent people being the victim of prejudice; but it is disingenuous - because South Asian Muslim men, as a class, ARE more sexist (NAMALT) than the UK population as a whole. Bickering about the value of generalisations should not be used to shut the conversation down. Not when women's freedom from sexist abuse is at stake.

Well some Muslim posters were genuinely upset by the generalising earlier.

I wasn't just being "bien pensant".