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Cinema ban on the Lord's Prayer

999 replies

Leafitout · 22/11/2015 11:39

Surely if anyone finds this advert offensive they can choose not to watch it. I can't see the problem with showing it.

OP posts:
Offred · 25/11/2015 18:02

And going back to the op. If the prayer in the ad is also unimportant then you don't mind the refusal to sell advertising time for it and everybody is happy - yes?

riverwalk · 25/11/2015 18:04

No, they say they apply their beliefs to all religions, but only vocal in their condemnation of Christians. It's a complete cop out to say all the things you dislike about Christianity but won't about other faiths, just saying "I think the same about all faiths." If that isn't anti Christian I don't know what is. It is you who sound unintelligent to not grasp this. It'd blindingly obvious.

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:05

It. Is. A. Thread. About. A. Christian. Church...

You DO understand that right?

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:06

And what is the 'they' for?

Did you mean to display quite so much of your obvious prejudice towards secularists there?

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:09

And where is the condemnation of Christians? I've seen condemnation of the privilege afforded to the Christian church, I've seen condemnation of Christians who refuse to offer the same respect for belief to others that they wish to benefit from themselves, I've seen condemnation of a particular choice made by a Christian church...

Where is the condemnation of Christians?

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:12

You just can't see that it is this attitude of helping yourself to privilege and viewing any criticism of the behaviour of the church, the privilege of the church or disrespectful acts carried out by religious people in the name of the religion as an attack on the general concept of freedom which will ultimately undermine and restrict your rights to practice your faith...

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:16

It will happen because despite the privilege afforded to the CofE in the functioning of the state they are in fact subordinate to secular law. If any church puts themselves in conflict with the law it will find it's freedoms become increasingly restricted.

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:20

The ISIS claim that secular law is not applicable to them and their aim to impose religious rule is at least more consistent than the CofE's stated aim to use secular law to enforce the imposition of their advert...

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:22

And dare I say it more honest...

JassyRadlett · 25/11/2015 18:27

Jessie which laws apply specifically to Muslims? there aren't any, as there aren't to any Christians either. But really you are looking for things to gripe about. Just how badly is your life affected by having to live in a Christian country.

Well, apart from the one about having an established church, the one about collective worship, the one about bishops in the legislature... That's the difference you see - Christianity (and the CofE specifically), does get singled out by the state. Sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending otherwise doesn't rewrite statute.

Do you really think that 'things are worse elsewhere' is a good argument not to work to make things better here? How depressing - a 'you're not starving to death or having your hand cut off, just shut up and be grateful' mentality. I like to think that we can always do better, and we should work towards that.

Alpert from anything else you said that you'd like to see a lot of the institutions of this country stripped of their Christian connections. I asked if you'd also like to see other faiths being stripped of their connections. There's nothing baffling about this question

Well, it is a little unless you can clarify what class of state structures are linked solely to a named non-Christian faith, in the way the CofE gets unique privileges?

t's a complete cop out to say all the things you dislike about Christianity but won't about other faiths

I thought I'd been pretty even handed about what I dislike about religion in general. What have I said I dislike about Christianity?

I've said I dislike the privilege the state affords to Christianity. That's not exactly saying what I dislike about Christianity. There's plenty of stuff - I was a Christian for long enough to have a more detailed and personal perspective on Christianity than other faiths - but they're not terribly relevant to this discussion.

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:36

I think the obvious truth is that the vocal Christians on this thread don't have a problem with their prayers or the concept of praying because it is something they do, they don't have a problem with collective Christian worship in schools or the NHS funding chaplains or bishops in the HoL because it is their faith.

That's all. They are finding the objections of others offensive or difficult to understand because their faith is blinding them to the rights of others at best and at worst it is encouraging them to actively discriminate against others and call attempts to stop this behaviour 'persecution' of Christians...

JassyRadlett · 25/11/2015 18:37

It will happen because despite the privilege afforded to the CofE in the functioning of the state they are in fact subordinate to secular law. If any church puts themselves in conflict with the law it will find it's freedoms become increasingly restricted.

That applies to so-called sharia courts in this country too, incidentally, as sharia was mentioned earlier but not followed up. Sharia courts to rule on issues of religious law seems like an internal matter for the religion (though not entirely unproblematic as Baroness Cox's campaign has pointed out). However where it crosses into civil law (such as via arbitration for divorce settlements) it's clear the civil courts have primacy, and no sharia ruling is enforceable unless approved by the civil courts.

Again, not unproblematic especially on issues like divorce when the status of women is considered. But not overriding (or even give special status) in the civil courts.

Egosumquisum · 25/11/2015 18:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:47

Good point ego.

In a 'Christian' state it is clear that in normal times the majority of criticism and discussion will be related to Christianity.

The way to solve this terrible persecution of Christians through discussion and criticism of the imposition of a religion on a whole state of people is surely to end the 'Christian' elements of the functioning of the state...

riverwalk · 25/11/2015 18:50

Jessie it seems to bother you about privileges that Christians are afforded, collective worship, bishops in the legislature etc, these seem such trivial things to get so het up about. I can't think of any special privileges in the workplace which is offered to Christians, unlike Muslims who are allowed time off to go and pray. Please tell me why one others you but not the other. Incidentally it doesn't bother me in the slightest, but then I'm tolerant of all religions.

Egosumquisum · 25/11/2015 18:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:55

If part of Christian worship was a requirement to pray at a particular time as in Islam then Christians would have the same rights as Muslims.

You are not getting time out of work to pray because your religion doesn't demand it, not because the state is persecuting Christians FFS.

And of course people being opposed to those things doesn't seem important to you, they are important to other people. I reiterate that if you believe they are not important to Christianity and it is important to people of other beliefs then the correct thing to do is remove them from the functioning of the state.

I think you are disingenuous to say other people cannot object to them on the basis of belief but you can object to their removal on the basis of your beliefs.

BertrandRussell · 25/11/2015 18:57

"I can't think of any special privileges in the workplace which is offered to Christians, unlike Muslims who are allowed time off to go and pray. Please tell me why one others you but not the other. Incidentally it doesn't bother me in the sligh"

As a point of information, Muslims have to take annual leave for their special festivals and so on- and have to take the Christian ones whether they want to or not. Christians get their festivals on top of their leave entitlement.

Offred · 25/11/2015 18:58

I doubt riverwalk means to imply those things are trivial really. What I suspect is meant is that people should not ask for their abolition, because she/he feels their retention is very important.

Egosumquisum · 25/11/2015 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JassyRadlett · 25/11/2015 19:04

Jessie it seems to bother you about privileges that Christians are afforded, collective worship, bishops in the legislature etc, these seem such trivial things to get so het up about.

They may not be to you - they are to others. Inequality bothers me, and religious influence on the state and proselytisation to children bothers me. Discrimination that means children can't get into their local schools, and that has been shown to be particularly excluding of the most disadvantaged kids, really bothers me. Letting the clergy of any faith, let alone one particular faith, have a say in lawmaking that affects everyone is particularly problematic.

I can't think of any special privileges in the workplace which is offered to Christians, unlike Muslims who are allowed time off to go and pray. Please tell me why one others you but not the other.

There is nothing in law that says anyone can have time off to pray at work. Best practice says accommodating religious observance (prayer, time off for festivals) should be considered and incorporated where possible). Nothing is stopping Christians asking for time off to pray, or for a religious festival, on the same basis as any other religion. Muslims are afforded no particular privilege or protection in law that isn't available to other faiths.

That said, the state has already designated the major Christian festivals as days off for most folk. Nothing to stop Christians asking for time off for the Assumption, though, if they observe it. The same laws and guidance apply.

That's the difference: the law and guidance applies to all faiths, unlike the cases I've stated where the privilege is only afforded to Christianity by law.

What workplaces do for their own staff beyond statute is a matter for them and their work forces, really. But again, the law requires them to be even handed in how they treat staff (so a crucifix could not be banned but a Star of David allowed, for example.)

redstrawberry10 · 25/11/2015 19:04

How would you do this

cut all ties between the state and the C of E? Legally, this wouldn't be trivial, but it ought to be the goal.

and also is it wrong that a country such as Iran should have Islam in such a privileged position, given that the majority of people are Islam?

this comment shows just out of touch you are with the notion of secularism. I am not iranian, so I really don't have a say there. But certainly, iran is a less desirable place to live because of the ties of religion to government. If it were up to me, all states (Israel, Pakistan, UK etc) would become secular. There are strong arguments that the citizens of those countries, even the ones that are part of the major religion, would also benefit.

redstrawberry10 · 25/11/2015 19:07

I can't think of any special privileges in the workplace which is offered to Christians

presumably you can think of the ones repeatedly mentioned here, like that christians alone have their holidays set as bank holidays. how about that one?

Offred · 25/11/2015 19:10

I think ego is right. Many Christians don't recognise how many things they take for granted.

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