Cinema ban on the Lord's Prayer

[Leafitout]

Surely if anyone finds this advert offensive they can choose not to watch it. I can't see the problem with showing it.

Agree, Red. I'm all for teaching kids about the major religions - my own appreciation of the art and culture of other faiths was held back a bit by religious education that was All Christianity, All The Time - and I favour a decent amount of reading key bits of the bible as it's such a huge part of our cultural canon.

It's the bit where (a) kids are told it's fact, (b) Christianity is presented as the default when it comes to faith (opt out, not opt in) and are asked to participate in worship at school that I take issue with.

Yeah, the scientolgists have had a much harder time on this thread. I've just reread and I have to say I'm struggling to see all the derogatory comments you are taking issue with. Lots of talk about religion from the get go, actually.

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? You expect all threads on religion to take place in a certain way so you engage in that basis, without seeing whether this one is different.

When does the cycle break?

gruntledone are you saying Christians have a statuary right to a daily act of worship in the workplace? What nonsense. As far as I know isn't that what Muslims get.

neither christians nor muslims get that. Muslims certainly don't get their entire company to do it and expect everyone else to opt out.

you have blinders.

gruntledone are you saying Christians have a statuary right to a daily act of worship in the workplace? What nonsense. As far as I know isn't that what Muslims get.

Er, no. Where are you getting that from?

The links below are helpful - and to note they are neutral in the subject of specific religions.

The only statutory compulsion on any organisation to provide worship related to a particular faith is the requirement for maintained schools to provide a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature, to the best of my knowledge.

ACAS on what the law says, and what constitutes good practice

A law firm's summary

Restrwberry where do Christians get their entire company to do it but Muslims don't? I don't know a company in Britain who would refuse a Muslim to go and pray at specified times.
Again it's this criticism of Christianity. Amazing really when you consider what's going on in the world right now, all in the name of Islam and yet you bleat about Christians wanting exemptions etc. It's so strange, yet very predictable.

It seems to bother a lot of people that schools have a requirement to provide a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature.
How absolutely terrible, how damaged the poor things must be.

Again it's this criticism of Christianity. Amazing really when you consider what's going on in the world right now, all in the name of Islam and yet you bleat about Christians wanting exemptions etc. It's so strange, yet very predictable

What criticism? Pointing out that Christianity gets special privileges in the UK?

Again, I think all religions are potentially dangerous. What's being done in the name of Islam by Isis et al, the horror that is Israel/Palestine, the evil perpetrated by followers of the Army of God in the US and elsewhere.

None of that alters the fact that Christianity (and mostly the CofE) occupies a privileged position in the structures of the state in England, and that it's reasonable to point this out and campaign for a more equal approach.

gruntledone are you saying Christians have a statuary right to a daily act of worship in the workplace?

No. Where does my post say "in the workplace"? If you RTFT you would see that the right relates to maintained schools. Muslims likewise don't get that right by statute or otherwise. I'm quite sure that if the need to worship conflicts with employment duties then employers don't allow it: you don't see surgeons walking out of operations to pray, for instance, nor do you see courts interrupting their business to allow a barrister to do so. On the other hand, the law dictates that large shops aren't open all day on Christian days of worship.

And it's "statutory". HTH.

It seems to bother a lot of people that schools have a requirement to provide a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature

It seems a pointless waste of time when we're always being told schools don't have time for the curriculum; it is divisive (by expecting children of other faiths to opt out of part of the school day); it presents Christianity as the default religion to children by adults who are significant influences in their lives; it presents what is at best a heavily disputed issue and at worst lies, depending on your point of view, to children as fact.

Hope that's helped.

where do Christians get their entire company to do it but Muslims don't?

Schools! Schools! You talked about work. And I don't know of a company that would deny a christian the same privilege given to muslims, but every day in this country in every state school the reverse happens.

How absolutely terrible, how damaged the poor things must be.

that's not for you to decide.

Why not just be honest and admit that you have privileges, and that's why all the whining of oppression falls on deaf ears?

Ok, going by your argument it's wrong that Christianity occupies a privileged position in the structures of the state n England, and you want a more equal approach. How would you do this, and also is it wrong that a country such as Iran should have Islam in such a privileged position, given that the majority of people are Islam?

It's funny isn't it that it's the same people who are outraged at secularism being an attack on fundamental freedoms and specifically Christianity who make lame comments such as 'so what if people have prayer forced on them'.

You know the whole argument people were making about thought control, prayer bans etc well why would those things be so wrong and offensive to you? Those are the same reasons people feel having someone else's religion foisted on them is bad and offensive...

It really isn't that hard to manage these things if people are willing to respect each other.

Unfortunately the vocal Christians on this thread have simply further entrenched my view that very religious people are often incapable of respecting other people's beliefs.

Redstrawberry If its a Christian school it's for others to fit in with that school, not the other way round, and regarding the workplace, no Christians ask for special treatment, ie prayers as do Muslims.

Ok, going by your argument it's wrong that Christianity occupies a privileged position in the structures of the state n England, and you want a more equal approach. How would you do this

Remove the things I've listed as examples? No bishops in Parliament, no discrimination by religion in school admissions, no schools undermining parents' decisions about religious teaching by presenting as fact through collective worship a God that may be incompatible with the parents' religion, funding for religious chaplains in hospitals to be funded by churches, not the NHS.

I'd like to go further and not have state-funded faith schools, but I'm an incurable optimist. In most cases they remove choice rather than provide it.

and also is it wrong that a country such as Iran should have Islam in such a privileged position, given that the majority of people are Islam

Yep. I think separation of church and state is a very sound principle.

If its a Christian school it's for others to fit in with that school

First, it's not just 'Christian' schools unless you count all state schools as Christian schools, and second, many kids don't get a choice about whether to go to a faith school or not - sometimes the faith school is the only available option.

So would you also like to see Muslims lose some of their privileges, and the abolition of sharia law?

The abolition of sharia law where, exactly?

I've told you what I think about the separation of church and state, while supporting equality principles as they pertain to the freedom of religion.

Which laws apply specifically to Muslims in this country, please? I daresay I'll be against them, but I'd like to know what I'm objecting to.

You seem very hung up on how I feel about Islam. Which bits of 'separation of church and state' and 'I think all religions are misguided and potentially dangerous' are unclear?

My two bits worth on the original OP:

One of the problems with the C of E film is that, on account of its rather unusual subject matter, it hovers uneasily between being a conventional advert and being a state-sanctioned public information film of the sort you might have seen in cinemas during the war. For that reason, the whole enterprise feels slightly dishonest.

The phrase ‘Prayer is for everyone’ at the end is also used in a rather ‘sleight of hand’ way. Given that only the Lord’s Prayer is included, the covert message is ‘Our Prayer is for everyone’.

If the C of E sincerely wanted to promote prayer for all, I would like to have heard snatches of prayer from a variety of religions – and even better, I’d like to have heard people using their own words in prayer. A spread out network of people reciting a scripted ‘group prayer’ as portrayed in the film can feel oppressive if it’s not your group. For me, it rather brought to mind the enigmatic blonde children in the Village of the Damned who communicated telepathically and appeared to be plugged into the one hive mind.

The Lord’s Prayer is very familiar culturally in this country (the UK) so it might be easier to understand the potentially alienating effect on an outsider if the film is reimagined with each person saying a line from the Islamic equivalent, the Fatiha (unless of course you are Muslim and the Fatiha is comforting and familiar).

I actually feel there is an important more general message that could have been given as a gift from the C of E to the populace at large via the film –

Saying your hopes, fears and general musings out loud, whether in the form of prayer or otherwise, is for everyone

Now, that’s a take-home message that wouldn’t have me choking on my popcorn.

Why is secularism such a difficult concept to grasp?

You are looking for reasons to feel got at. This is a thread about the behaviour of a Christian church. The fact this thread mainly discusses Christianity is not a sign that secularists are actually just using secularism to hide a particular disgust with Christianity.

Normal levels of logical reasoning should enable you to work that out.

Why is secularism such a difficult concept to grasp?

Indeed. It's not as if there aren't plenty of examples of secular states - many where the dominant religion seems to be doing better than it is here.

I think the truth is, as with all 'one true faith' believers people who hold beliefs other than the 'one true faith' are seen as enemies and expression of beliefs other than the 'one true faith' or criticism of special privileges given to the 'one true faith' are seen and felt as attacks...

Trouble is it isn't very rational or reasonable and as such I expect that kind of practising of belief in this country is going to be increasingly restricted by law in this country.

For goodness sake, there isn't any law in this country that says you have to be Christian. All faiths are accommodated for. If you don't wish to be Christian, you certainly don't have to be. You won't get beheaded or executed as you would by the Islamic extremists.
Jessie which laws apply specifically to Muslims? there aren't any, as there aren't to any Christians either. But really you are looking for things to gripe about. Just how badly is your life affected by having to live in a Christian country.
Alpert from anything else you said that you'd like to see a lot of the institutions of this country stripped of their Christian connections. I asked if you'd also like to see other faiths being stripped of their connections. There's nothing baffling about this question.

You are just making yourself look unintelligent or goady though by asking that question of someone who has clearly expressed that they believe in secularism and apply their beliefs to all religions...

If you don't think the laws giving the CofE special privileges in schools or the administration of the state more generally exist or are important then surely it follows that you will not notice or mind if they are abolished and then everybody is happy - yes?