to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

That's a really interesting question, and I don't have an answer, really. But I do, absolutely and at a basic level, identify very strongly as a woman. Despite never being a feminine sort of person by any of the stereotypes. It's just always been a label that felt right, I suppose.

Then again, I was brought up by a feminist single mother who taught me pride in being a woman in terms of what women have achieved in the face of a lot of prejudice and oppression, and who never paid much attention to appearances etc and taught me the same, so perhaps that's why I never saw any contradiction. I don't know. I just know that I feel a solidarity with other women, and a sense that I am one.

It's all really interesting, Smilla. Will have to do some research.

I don't like it. I don't believe gender exists. I believe most people are born male or female. Man means human adult male and woman means human adult female.

There is no reason to say cis because woman is already there.

I'm glad I'm old. I'll be pushing up the daisies before this expression gains acceptance in the real world.

Sleeponeday, you just made up a list of feelings/attributes/personality traits.

If you are saying that is what cis is, you are saying they match/correspond/agree with people's sex.

What has your pride in the face of adversity got to do with my uterus?

I was answering Brioche's question, Almond. Your manners thus far make your posts, let alone your uterus, a matter of utter disinterest to me.

I'm aware you are answering a question from another poster, and I'm pointing out a contradiction in your posts.

You said that associating a set of attributes/personality traits and feelings with someone's sex was sexist bullshit.

But you are now doing so.

If you are disinterested in my posts, perhaps you should stop repeatedly responding to them?

Point out the list of traits and attributes I associated with femininity. Because I didn't do any such thing. You just made that up. That is fucking rude, not to mention intellectually dishonest to the nth degree - and if you don't think lying about someone's argument is offensive, then what is left to say?

I don't associate stereotypes with being a woman. I think the notion men are innately better at STEM subjects, women should groom more, women prefer caring professions by nature and not from socialisation etc are sexist bullshit. But I don't agree gender doesn't exist, and I don't think the science backs that up, either. I just don't think the way we perform gender, and regard gender, is divisible from social constructs of gender. That doesn't mean to say that because social constructs are artificial, so is the very concept of gender itself - I think it very unlikely, given biological and hormonal differences, that there aren't some innate neurodevelopmental differences, too. But the weight of social pressure means we have little chance of separating the two in any useful manner.

I do get tired of the needless aggression around debates such as this. It's adolescent and it's stupid.

I don't feel remotely aggressive towards you.

I haven't mentioned femininity at all, ever on this thread. I really like feminine women and have no issue with them whatsoever.

I simply explained what cis meant and I do not think that there are feelings, personality traits or attributes that match a sex. The concept makes no sense to me.

I don't need people to try to gauge how in line my sexual orientation is with my body through a newly made up label

I don't think it's for the LGBTQ community to rename women everywhere to suit their purpose either.

I say that as a strong supporter of the LGBTQ community

unnecessarily divisive IMO

Your posts have been aggressive in tone, though I appreciate that may not be intentional. They have also been dishonest, though. I gave no list (I note you can't quote one, though you have failed to apologise for claiming otherwise) and in fact couldn't, because I don't see any personality traits or personal qualities as universal for women, or indeed any other social group. Which leads me to:

I really like feminine women

What, all of them? Are they cloned?

I don't see stereotypes as defining anything, least of all worth or likeability. If your issue with the concept of cis is that it locks people into stereotyped gender binaries, then I can understand that opposition, and the unease that it either excludes, or forces some women into a categorisation that is patently not comfortable for or representative of them. But the difficulty then becomes that "non-trans" still defines trans and birth women (?) solely by gender, surely. And there's an extent to which I kick against the notion that being a woman is, can, or should be defined by being stereotypically "feminine". Why? Why is being a woman seen as so limited? Why aren't the possibilities wider, and the limits more fluid, than that?

Why is cis necessarily about a gender role, rather than implying a comfort with the assigned birth sex? What is feminist about assuming that a cis woman will necessarily be the socially determined concept of womanhood - make-up, gentle, child-loving and socially adept? Why can't all of us who were born with female sex organs, and who don't feel dysphoria in that assignation or that they are queer, just be accepted in our varying ways, and however we choose to live, as women too? Why must being a woman be akin to a straitjacket?

I suppose the question is: who decides that cis means "socially constructed femininity", rather than "comfortable identifying with the sex assigned at birth"? And if it's the latter, what is insulting about it?

I don't think it's for the LGBTQ community to rename women everywhere to suit their purpose either.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Appending a label to another social group, without that group's involvement, is pretty shonky, really. "Nothing for us without us" as the saying goes.

Yanbu
I don't like it either
And it's usually used in a demeaning way, especially on tumblr!!

Woman means what it means you can't change that.
Trans is just an added adjective on the front
Cis is completely unnecessary in this context, it's basically adding in an extra word that means the same thing

YANBU

'Woman' covers all women in most circumstances. Born-woman or trans-woman specifies how they came to be women, if it is necessary to specify.

Tagging women as 'cis' against their choice is incredibly rude.

(I'll ignore the ridiculous comments re 'neurotypical' upthread except to applaud OurYve's response.)

YANBU, I am a woman.

Yanbu. It's entirely unnecessary and seems almost purposely designed to get women's backs up.
I agree with Strawberry's last post.

YANBU.

I find it insulting. I already have a label I am happy with. I'm a woman.

The trans community don't get to change my label to suit them.

Agree. Only learnt yesterday this word existed.

Sleeponeday, you mentioned several different attributes/feelings of being a woman that you have. I don't think it is particularly dishonest of me to call that listed!

I really don't think I've been aggressive to you. You have called me names, sworn at me, called me a liar. Those are typically considered aggressive actions. I've simply disagreed with you.

I don't think anyone is assuming that cis women should be feminine. Cis doesn't mean comfort with your birth sex because a. not everyone who says they are cis is comfortable with their birth sex and b. cis is by definition about gender identity. Gender identity refers to people's internal sense of their own gender.

I think you may be referring to the difference between cis sexual and trans sexual people. Some trans people are cis sexual.

But this thread is about cis gender and trans gender.

I agree it's unnecessary. I think many women are by the whole concept because for many of us we don't see ourselves as happy with the gender we were assigned at birth. Many of us don't "feel" like women and I've never yet come across women who can define what feeling like a woman is. Being a woman for many of us is just biological fact, it's what we are, it's not something we had any choice in, nor is it something we can change. It just is what we are. I resent other people telling me I am happy with the gender I was assigned to. In not, I'm deeply unhappy with it and the whole notion of gender. I wish we would stop gendering kids, I wish society treated boys and girls as if the ONLY differences between them were biological. To me suggesting that there is more than biology separating men and women is offensive, women have fought against it for decades. Trans women should be treated as women in society, their preferred pronoun should be used and they should be referred to by the name they choose. Attempts to redefine women's issues as "cis" issues should be resisted though. If woman becomes a category than is no longer primarily defined by biology then we are taking a huge step backwards IMO.

Can someone confirm the pronunciation of cis please?

Is it kis or sis?

Someone asked if men get called cis. Yes, they do. In the same way that a person who was identified as a girl when they were born and identifies as a woman now is referred to as a cis-woman, a person identified as a boy when born that now identifies as a man is called a cis-man.

For the record, I am a woman, am happy to be called a cis-woman, and would be highly offended if a post of mine was deleted because I referred to myself as cis.

Sis

I'd be a bit concerned if there were any possibility of this terminology gaining traction. I've only seen it on MN, which seems to have a laser-like focus on trans-woman issues at the moment. I have heard no discussion in real life about Caitlyn Jenner.