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Original poster

to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

999 replies

violetsarentblue · 17/11/2015 22:21

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

OP posts:
MyNewBearTotoro · 18/11/2015 01:33

I know many women are neither straight/ gay, married/ single etc (I'm none of those things for example) - I just used them as examples of other things a woman might be that are occasionally relevant and wanted to save myself typing more than two either/or for each example. It wasn't meant to be comprehensive.

I guess I'm just trying to say sometimes saying 'woman' does not give enough context and in such cases it's useful to be able to use a prefix, whatever that may be.

In cases where it's relevant that women are 'cis' rather than trans (or indeed anywhere else on the non-binary gender spectrum) then I am happy for women to be referred to as such.

whatever22 · 18/11/2015 01:33

I absolutely don't understand the 'the word woman is enough' people on this thread, unless they have some weird misunderstanding that the term cis woman is somehow supposed replace the word woman in everyday life.

Yes, woman is a perfectly good word. But when discussing hair colours being able to differentiate between 'blonde women' and 'Red haired women' for example could be useful. If we are discussing sexuality using 'straight women' or 'gay women' might be useful. If we are discussing transgender issues, then differentiating between trans women and cis women (and allowing both to be under the umbrella term 'women') might be useful so we all know what we're talking about.

I do think that categorisation labels are useful to discuss issues, but I also think it's important to realise real people rarely fit neatly into them (and shouldn't have to) My hair is gingery-blondish, lots of people aren't straight or gay, etc.

Men can also be trans or cis, incidently, so no idea why people think it only refers to women.

limitedperiodonly · 18/11/2015 01:34

Can I respectfully suggest, if you don't give a shiny shit, could't care less, are sick of the subject...etc then you needn't comment?

Amen.

Can all those people who don't see the problem just bugger off?

Otherwise I will be forced to be fucking rude to you.

And then you'll get upset and ask MN to delete me.

Bambambini · 18/11/2015 01:37

I find the whole subject confusing though it has made me think about stuff I've always just accepted or taken for granted.

What does being a woman feel like? I don't even know if I feel like a woman or how I feel is different to how other women feel.

What does a man or boy who doesn't feel right being a male, think "woman feel like?"

Is there a list of what women feel like, what it takes to be a woman?

limitedperiodonly · 18/11/2015 01:38

Instead of cis, I find the terms male, female, MTT, WTT more acceptable and accurate.

almondpudding · 18/11/2015 01:40

My new bear, then I think you need to be very clear about there being more than two groups.

Because the impression I get is that many people assume anyone who isn't trans is cis.

And that is rude and misgendering people, which is what people are complaining about.

MyNewBearTotoro · 18/11/2015 01:43

Whatever22 basically summed up what I was trying (and failing) to articulate in a much clearer way.

I'm sorry I can't think of a specific example in which I might need to differentiate between trans/ cis women. I suppose in any discussion in which I was discussing the needs/ views of women (and including all who identify as women in that discussion) but where the needs/ viewpoints of trans and cis women were very different.

I suppose if you don't believe transgender women to be women at all maybe I can see why the term cis would be regarded as unnecessary. But if you feel trans women are women (which I do) it is useful to have a term like cis to differentiate between the two where relevant.

almondpudding · 18/11/2015 01:51

Mynewbear, you're still referring to there being two groups as the default!

Have you come on a thread about people being misgendered just to keep misgendering people?

TheDowagerCuntess · 18/11/2015 01:52

I agree with whatever22 as well.

MyNewBearTotoro · 18/11/2015 01:53

Well I agree mis-gendering people is a problem.

I don't think that the term 'cis' should be used to refer to any individuals, collectively or specifically, who do not identify as cis-women. In the same way as I wouldn't use trans-woman to refer to an individual who did not identify as trans.

But I think the term cis is fine in itself when being used to refer to women who are cis-women and are happy to be referred to as such and I think it is useful to have the term to be able to differentiate between cis women and women who are not cis in the same way it is useful to have the term trans to differentiate between trans women and women who are not trans.

It's just helpful to know who is being referred to in contexts where that's relevant. (Which to be honest in real life is, in my experience, really not often).

sleeponeday · 18/11/2015 01:57

I don't get the problem? I mean, I'm a white straight cis woman. But for most purposes, I'm a woman. The other terms are only useful in situations where clarity on my sexuality, ethnicity or gender are an issue, which is rare, frankly, though I accept that being in the majority group on all fronts is probably why.

I don't get why a descriptive term to differentiate trans people from non-trans people is insulting. If used as an insult then obviously that's different, but as a word in itself, which clarifies someone's gender status, I don't get why it's a problem.

sleeponeday · 18/11/2015 02:00

I am not cis. It is a highly offensive term.

Limited I am honestly trying to understand why people think that - please can you explain? I am not being disingenuous, I really haven't ever seen or thought of cis as being offensive, so I'm curious about why people are so strongly of the view that it is?

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 18/11/2015 02:01

I'm sorry I can't think of a specific example in which I might need to differentiate between trans/ cis women. I suppose in any discussion in which I was discussing the needs/ views of women (and including all who identify as women in that discussion) but where the needs/ viewpoints of trans and cis women were very different.

I suppose if you don't believe transgender women to be women at all maybe I can see why the term cis would be regarded as unnecessary. But if you feel trans women are women (which I do) it is useful to have a term like cis to differentiate between the two where relevant.

You are quite explicitly suggesting that all women are either trans or cis.

You might be doing so because of the fact that you also seem to be ignoring that cis has a positive meaning - that positive meaning being 'is the same as'. Cis does not purely mean 'is not the opposite of'. It does not exclusively take its meaning from the position of 'not being trans'.

MyNewBearTotoro · 18/11/2015 02:01

Sorry, I'm not saying there are only cis/ trans people. I'm not saying if you're not trans you're cis.

I'm just saying it may be relevant to use the term cis when talking about the views/ needs of cis women in relation to another group. I've used trans women as the example because it's another clear defined group people may identify with.

That's not to say all women are either trans or cis. I recognise that is not the case, unfortunately I don't know the (no doubt numerous) different ways women who fall outside those two terms would like to be referred to so I haven't referred to them as anything.

I apologise if anyone feels I've mush endeared them that wasn't my intention. I'm just saying the term cis women can be useful to refer to [people who identify as] cis women in contexts where it is relevant and provides clarity as part of the discussion.

MyNewBearTotoro · 18/11/2015 02:05

That should say I apologise if anyone feels I've mis-gendered them. Sorry, auto-correct was having fun!

almondpudding · 18/11/2015 02:05

Because cis means a person whose gender 'matches' their sex.

My sex is female.

WTF should anyone be able to make up a list of feelings/personality traits/interests and say they match or agree with my sex.

And why, just because they feel that way, do they assume loads of other people feel the same way?

almondpudding · 18/11/2015 02:06

Sorry, that was to sleep one day.

sleeponeday · 18/11/2015 02:10

Smilla that was my understanding of what cis meant - that it means "not trans or gender-queer". Apparently that's wrong - can I ask you what it does mean, then?

almondpudding · 18/11/2015 02:13

From the OED:

"Denoting or relating to someone whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex. Compare with transgender."

sleeponeday · 18/11/2015 02:15

WTF should anyone be able to make up a list of feelings/personality traits/interests and say they match or agree with my sex.

But that's just sexist bullshit. Socially constructed, socialised roles. That doesn't have anything to do with being a woman, IMO.

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered · 18/11/2015 02:15

I have not read the whole fucking thread.

I have however read a lot of the endless other threads about this subject.

I would just like to ask all of you who are saying you don't give a shit who calls you what, how are you going to feel if legislation decides that you are are a cis woman, and a woman is what you, presently think, is a trans woman?

Because they are the ones shouting loudest, and unless enough of us say no, they might get what they want.

Brioche201 · 18/11/2015 02:18

What bambambini said.what is feeling like a woman,or a man for that matter? If you take 'styling' and sexual orientation out of the equation, what is left to define femaleness or maleness?

shadowfax07 · 18/11/2015 02:19

I don't think it is appropriate that those born another sex and socialized as a different gender get to tell me what my gender is or label me thanks.

^^ This

I've had enough of labels.

^^ And this.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 18/11/2015 02:21

But that's just sexist bullshit. Socially constructed, socialised roles. That doesn't have anything to do with being a woman, IMO.

Welcome to the concept of gender.

'Cis woman' is a phrase that attempts to describe 1. sex and 2. gender. Some of us think it's a load of offensive nonsense because we believe 'gender' is a load of old bollocks (as your above post would imply you do, too).

almondpudding · 18/11/2015 02:24

Yes, it is sexist bullshit and people are offended by it.

Hence the thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread