to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

A phobia is of course something irrational. Branding someone "transphobic" is of course the perfect way of shutting down a debate by implicitly branding all your opponents as irrational and bigoted.

Yy.

I haven't had experience of transwomen trying to silence me either. There probably aren't that many of them.

No, but some of them are very shouty, and they're getting to set the agenda because of that. I suspect many others will have enough of their energy taken up on just getting through the day.

Can we come up with a reply, womanphobic maybe

Yoniphobic?

Phobiyonic?

I would like to clear up a few fallacies here.

1. Why do you think an internal feeling is a characteristic of being female but being of the sex which produces eggs is not?

I never said that being of the sex which produces eggs is not a characteristic of being female. That's a HUGE leap.

2. So any born woman who has a negative reaction to a male-bodied individual in a space where women are naked is transphobic? Is that your conclusion?

Nope, never said that either. Again a huge leap, and I can't even see where you have taken that from.

3. Do you think if you explain at them for long enough they'll all admit how wrong and transphobic they've been and commence referring to themselves as "cis" from that point on?

No - never said anyone should call themselves cis. I came on here to argue that there is no need to take offence/delete if someone refers to you as CIS. As I said upthread, all words can be used as an insult, and so it all depends on the context. I also said to correct someone if they use the term for you and it's not correct.

4. But that's the logical extensions of your insistence that the sex of 'female' applies to anyone who identifies with the gender of 'woman'.

That's probably the biggest fallacy of all. I have never said that there is no biological difference between transwomen and women who were born physically female. I said it is possible to change sex, but I have never suggested that sex reassignment surgery makes transwomen and women who were born physically female exactly the same anatomically-speaking. And equally I have never suggested that the term 'female' should ONLY be used when it applies equally to EVERYONE who identifies as a woman. That's like objecting to the word 'Asian' when you are referring specifically to people from South Asia. There are times when a general term is appropriate and there are times when a general term isn't appropriate. The difference is like the following:

'All Asians like spicy food' - No they don't.
'This type of architecture is particularly popular in Asian countries'. - This doesn't have to mean all Asian countries, and I wouldn't consider it offensive to the Asian countries to which it does not apply.

Isshoes I'm kind of fascinated by posts like yours. When you say "it is possible to change sex" what do mean?

Sex is a categorization of reproductive capacity.

From a dictionary - either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

So when you say that it is possible to change sex, do you mean that it is possible for transwomen to carry and birth babies? Because that is patently ridiculous and untrue. And if you don't mean that, what do you mean ?

So when you say that it is possible to change sex, do you mean that it is possible for transwomen to carry and birth babies?

No - after all, I'm not actually stupid or deluded...

What I mean is that it is possible to have surgery and other treatment that aligns your gender identity with that of your physical appearance, and to further apply to have your change of gender legally recognised. In my view, and in the view of many others, that is a sex change. And you should be treated as your 'new' gender/sex.

This does not mean that you have all of the same biological functions as those born 'female'. To suggest that I believe otherwise, or have said otherwise, is disingenuous. And to further suggest that I have said that there is no circumstance in which there need be ANY recognition of the difference between trans and cis-gendered women would also not be true.

Even if a trans woman has undergone hormone treatment and had surgery what is he common ground that we share ?

So if you can have a sex change to "woman" what is the name of the group that defines your biological differences if it is no longer your sex?

I have heard of sex change ops since being a kid but presumed that was wishy washy media clap trap not a real use of the phrase.

I never said that being of the sex which produces eggs is not a characteristic of being female. That's a HUGE leap.

You have answered questions very selectively and I have tried to fill the gaps with a logical step. You haven't said anything about the characteristics of being female other than the feelings of being female. How does this related to the 6ft boarded body builder? Are they female if they feel female? Your usage strips any meaning from the terms "woman" or "female".

Surgery for sex reassignment does not create a reproductive system of the opposite sex but often destroys the reproductive system. The person does not become of the opposite sex but has cosmetic surgery to appear as if one is of the opposite sex. The criteria for successful creation of a neovagina is that it can be penetrated by a penis in sexual intercourse. That's not a criterion for being of the female sex.

Toadinthehole
If it is already the case that stating that a transwoman is biologically male is "transphobic" I suspect things are only going to get worse.

I'd say the problem is more a failure, or refusal, by some to acknowledge transwomen as anything other than male. If transwomen can't be female because they were born male, and can't acquire a gender that is considered an artificial patriarchal construct, then what options does that leave them?

I'm curious to know where the focus by some posters on biological sex, especially in relation to male and female spaces, leaves those who are born with both male and female sexual characteristics. Do they get any more latitude?

Judging by this thread, a lot of animosity towards transwomen seems to result from the behaviour/comments of some within the trans movement and a perception that they undermine the feminist movement and women's rights. How unfair to judge a group of people by the extreme views expressed by a vocal few.

ShortcutButton
The most difficult WS a man who transitioned whilst working with us. So for 6 years we had known him as John. A quiet man, that all the women in the office avoided as he stared at your tots all the time and made you uncomfortable. Then one Monday he came in wearing a dress and badly applied makeup, changed his name to Joan and started using the ladies toilets

This reads as though you were not prepared in advance. If so, I find that surprising and would say the situation was very poorly handled. What is the relevance of 'badly applied makeup'?

FloraFox
adjustable there are lots of women who like to post on threads discussing feminism to say they have never experienced discrimination, make violence etc and what are all these feminists on about. It's not much of a contribution, is it?

Of course it's a valid contribution. Very odd to want to disregard opinions that express a different viewpoint.

So if you can have a sex change to "woman" what is the name of the group that defines your biological differences if it is no longer your sex?

To continue my own argument... if sex: female/woman on my doctors form no longer means anything physically how do the docs know who to send servical smear appointments to, oh which reminds me...

What I mean is that it is possible to have surgery and other treatment that aligns your gender identity with that of your physical appearance, and to further apply to have your change of gender legally recognised. In my view, and in the view of many others, that is a sex change. And you should be treated as your 'new' gender/sex.

Leaving aside the very problematical notion of being "treated" as one sex or the other, it seems you don't actually believe they are of the other sex, just that they should be treated as if they are. Also you seem to be limiting this requirement to those who have surgical intervention and a GRC. Tgis explains why you won't answer about the 6ft bearded body builder who does not take hormones or have surgery. You don't believe he is a woman or female. Congratulations you're transphobic!

Fascicle as has been repeatedly said on the thread, those 'vocal few' are potentially going to affect the thinking of decision-makers and the law, and the knock on effects for women could be significant in a detrimental way.

That is why I care about this.

'Sex changes' allow the phenotype of the other sex to be mimicked, but the genotype remains the same - is that a fair observation?

It's not possible to change sex though.
Gender yes, sex no.

The body can be altered but the actual sex of the body can not be changed. I'm not going to agree that it can because it's upsetting to those who want it to be so. Sorry.

'Sex changes' allow the phenotype of the other sex to be mimicked, but the genotype remains the same - is that a fair observation?

maybe... if i understood a single word you said

I mean (I think) that you can alter physical appearance and body chemistry (phenotype) but not genetic stuff like chromosomes (genotype).

I was reading about it in a Gurdian discussion of a Roman burial today. The journalist made a bit of a hash of the article science-wise.

I'd say the problem is more a failure, or refusal, by some to acknowledge transwomen as anything other than male. If transwomen can't be female because they were born male, and can't acquire a gender that is considered an artificial patriarchal construct, then what options does that leave them

The same way we treat other body dysmorphic disorders and paraphilias?

The option does exist for female women to abandon the word 'woman' altogether and leave it to transwomen to use however they like. I suggest fannies for the rest of us. Fannies need specific medical and social considerations based on our biology, including safe spaces that men and women don't access.

Nice idea, but the next thing that will happen is that the bepenised half of population will insist they are trans-fannies, and next thing demand they be included in all fannies-only spaces.

And I think they will be doing that faster than you can even build new safe spaces - because of male privilege.

@Passive: "Phenotype" = What someone looks like from the outside. "Mimicked" = imitated "genotype" = genes. X and Y chromosomes in this case, I guess.

thank you @vesatal, i got mimicked.

Thanks for explaining isshoes. So really when you say " it is possible to change sex" you mean it is possible to alter one's appearance and look like the opposite sex.

Well I wouldn't argue with that, of course it is possible to alter one's appearance. But that isn't "changing sex" so it seems odd to me that you say one thing when you mean another.

It also strikes me as a bit unfair to trans people.

@Passive: Aha, so you DID understand a single word.

@ItsAll: Yes ... there aren't special pronouns for people who miss a leg, so those people whose brain tells them that their left leg is not part of their body don't require special pronouns.

I imagine it would be the same with transsexuals in a world where gender does not even exist in language.