to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

And not meaning to put words in your mouth but reading back your post, it sounds to me that you are saying that transwomen are a category of males who are treated (agree with Flora that this notion is problematic) as females.

In many people's book that would make you transphobic (and a TERF).

I think I understand your position better and it isn't as far from my own as I first thought.

Now my question is why? What is the motivation behind calling something that doesn't change a person's sex a "sex change" and why treat a person as something they are not and why go down a road that encourages people to medicate and have procedures on their bodies which are dangerous and damaging?

And that is without even touching on the ramifications for girls and women of this position.

I'm going to repeat again that I never suggested that you can change sex down to the chromosomal level.

I have also not said that transwomen are a category of men who are treated as females. I believe my point is closer to being that they are a category of females to whom some things apply and others don't (such as the ability to produce eggs and conceive a child).

Leaving aside the very problematical notion of being "treated" as one sex or the other, it seems you don't actually believe they are of the other sex, just that they should be treated as if they are. Also you seem to be limiting this requirement to those who have surgical intervention and a GRC. Tgis explains why you won't answer about the 6ft bearded body builder who does not take hormones or have surgery. You don't believe he is a woman or female. Congratulations you're transphobic!

Again Flora you are utterly wrong on pretty much every point.

I have said repeatedly that I believe that transwomen are women. And I have also never said that this is true of only people who have surgical intervention. What I have said is that a) it is possible to change sex and b) if a man who chooses not to have any treatment identifies as a woman, then who am I to tell him otherwise. If you choose not to change sex and become physically a woman, you can still choose to identify as one.
That said I have yet to see an example of someone born physically a man, who chooses not to have any treatment at all, or to dress as a woman, and yet who still identifies as a woman and expects to be treated as a woman.

You seem determined to have everything set out in black and white, and that is the polar opposite of what gender fluidity represents. Those are two different views that are never likely to agree.

As for the characteristics of being female - they are endless. What makes me feel like a woman is likely to be completely different to whatever makes you feel your gender. I don't think it's even possible to define unless you have experience of living as all genders.

Gender fluid is a bizarre label for people for do not wish to be pigeon holed by gender stereotypes. Like Ruby Rose (who has said she is gender fluid).

Trans people aren't gender fluid either. They very much seem to want to be be pigeonholed by gender stereotypes, just not the ones of the sex they were born.

never suggested that you can change sex down to the chromosomal level.

But sex is determined by chromosomes. You cannot change someone's sex. You can change your appearance to look like the opposite sex, or a cat, or a lizard, but you do not become that thing.

Gender fluid is a bizarre label for people for do not wish to be pigeon holed by gender stereotypes.
I understood as people who wish to be different gender stereotypes at different times ie gender is important to the gender fluid?

isshooes a person can identfy as what ever they want. It doesnt make that correct though

You cannot change sex. you an surgically be made asexual i suppose If a man was to have his testicles and penis removed and he was to take hormones. That doesnt make him a woman

Sorry, I'm a bit confused here.

By the time a human female is born, she has already produced her eggs.

If someone can't produce eggs, in what sense are they female?

As for the characteristics of being female - they are endless. What makes me feel like a woman is likely to be completely different to whatever makes you feel your gender. I don't think it's even possible to define unless you have experience of living as all genders

we are not talking about gender. gender is a load of wank. i dont live as any gender because it is made up. Characteristics of being female are not endless...they relate to biological sex. TW do not share them with us

Also, many gender fluid and other non binary people do consider themselves trans.

Jack Monroe has just come out as non binary trans.

Ishooes you are using the words woman and female without any meaning at all.

During the election, the Grrens had a hustings where the chair called for some women to ask questions as the questions til then were dominated by men. Up popped a young man in a suit with no indication of presenting as a woman to say he was a woman and asked a question. He was lauded in the room for his bravery as a "gender non conforming transwoman" ie a transwoman who looks like a man.

You will no doubt dismiss this as isolated but this as a mainstream (ish) political party meeting.

I have said repeatedly that I believe that transwomen are women.

I'm not really clear how woman is defined here. If transwomen are women and women are women, what defines women as women?

if a man who chooses not to have any treatment identifies as a woman, then who am I to tell him otherwise. If you choose not to change sex and become physically a woman, you can still choose to identify as one

Do you think that women who are victims of male rape should be legally forced to work with this hypothetical man in a women-only rape crisis centre?

I understood as people who wish to be different gender stereotypes at different times ie gender is important to the gender fluid?

People who don't want to be pigeon holed by gender stereotypes would, if properly informed, not label themselves as gender fluid or any other gender label.

However, I do believe that there are many people who label themselves as agender, bigender or gender fluid out of sheer desperation while navigating the gender jungle.

I myself have considered to try and label myself one of those things to see if and how it changes how genderists treat me - maybe I could get closer to the status of "actual human being" that is currently reserved for men?

Crikey, some of you are DETERMINED to keep reminding us of basic biology. There are clearly different views on what determines sex. Some say you can change it, others can't. Some see it as only applying to chromosomal or genetic sex whilst others see sex reassignment surgery as exactly that - a procedure in which a transsexual's physical appearance and genital anatomy is changed to align with their gender identity. It isn't really relevant to this topic.

Trans people covers many categories. Gender fluidity is a 'thing' which may or may not apply to some trans people. My point was that Flora wants a body building 'physically born' male who seeks no treatment to be fit into the box of either male or female, and won't have it any other way. I would argue that this hypothetical person may not buy into the school of thought that you have to be either one or the other.

Liney, I don't understand how trans women are mimicking the phenotype of a female.

The phenotype for female is a person with a uterus, cervix, and female gametes (eggs).

I keep posting this article on trans discussion threads, but that's only because its extremely relevant, its by Professor Adolph Reed Jr, he teaches political science at UPenn. He uses the Rachel Dolezal fiasco to point out the absurdities of trans orthodoxy, race and gender are both social constructs it is impossible to be trans gender or trans racial.

www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/15/jenner-dolezal-one-trans-good-other-not-so-much

Isshoe, I'm not talking about chromosomes though am I?

I'm talking about reproductive function AKA sex.

There is no other way to be female than to have a female body. And a female body is one which has a female reproductive system. That is just what the words sex and female mean.

So for me your position is full of contradiction. And that is because, as you said upthread, you are neither stupid nor delusional.

You know that transwomen have not actually changed their sex yet you say that they are the sex they want to be. Only one of these can be true - it is positively Orwellian to claim otherwise.

I have a real problem with the word "gender" and I suspect it is often used in order to obfuscate. At the very least it gets in the way of clarity as different people use it to mean different things. I for example use it in the feminist sense to mean sex based hierarchy. Gender is not something one has, is or chooses - gender is a hierarchy and a socio-political construct the purpose of which is to subjugate and exploit girls and women and present that subjugation and exploitation as the natural order.

I suspect that you use gender in the neoliberal sense.

In all the many threads and comments made across the Internet by trans activists, I have actually never encountered someone who believed it was possible to change which sex you were.

I have seen people claim that there is such a thing as a female penis, and so the sex of trans women has always been female.

But I have never heard someone who thought you could become a different sex from the one you were born as. I think your views are exceptional Ishoos.

People have always disliked women 'going on' about their own biology. Not having 'women's troubles' is the default after all.

there may be different views on what deterines sex ishoos and whether it can be changed; but that will be due to lack of understanding of basic biology. whih is why you probably feel those of us who do understand are labouring a point.

humans are sexually dimorphic so you can be male or female sex (yy, some people are born intersex)...cosmetic surgery annot alter your sex

gender is a soial onstruct/ stereotypes which people try to link to biological sex

almond so in fact neither phenotype nor genotype can be changed or imitated?

MaidOfStars - I imagine you have thought very carefully about the most inflammatory hypothetical scenario you could to put to me. 10 out of 10 for effort, but zero marks for taste.

I don't think anyone should be legally forced to work with anyone, particularly in such a sensitive set of circumstances.

I am not going to sit here and answer a barrage of questions about hypothetical scenarios purely so I can be chased off or else forced to admit defeat. That is unless you would like to propose the establishment of an ethics committee to consider some of the less ridiculous questions.

I don't think anyone should be legally forced to work with anyone, particularly in such a sensitive set of circumstances.

So you think there should be an individual rape crisis centre and domestic violence shelter for each individual?

MaidOfStars - I imagine you have thought very carefully about the most inflammatory hypothetical scenario you could to put to me. 10 out of 10 for effort, but zero marks for taste

Not at all. It's been a very recent topic of discussion and one that various women's groups/feminist groups have made public statements on (I was just reading the NUS Women's Union statement on it this morning). It's a reasonably straightforward example of how women-only spaces are at risk.

Do you have any thoughts on it? Or are you unwilling to give an answer? It's not about admitting defeat (or at least, that's not my intention), it's about realising that women have genuine reasons to fear equality legislation that would give transwomen the same legally protected characteristic as women in all situations.

Liney, I think you can imitate some elements of phenotype.

So I will have both brown and blue eye in my genotype, but my actual phenotype is brown eyes. When I put in contact lenses, I'm imitating a blue eye phenotype. I can't actually become blue eyed.

We could say that people someone who doesn't reach their maximum potential height has changed their potential phenotype. So in children and adolescents you can change expression of phenotype for height.

But you can't change reproductive sex from males to females.

Someone (I think on here) mentioned women born with a uterus and external female genitalia but no vagina. They were able to grow in labs vaginas for those women from their own genital tissue, but a vagina cannot be grown from other tissues because it has unique properties required for its function. I think it would be accurate to say with the aid of technology, those women have changed their phenotype.

But maybe it just isn't useful to use the term phenotype in these discussions at all? If we're not actually discussing differences between genes and how they are expressed, why talk of phenotype?

Isn't it easier just to talk of male - penis, testes, sperm, female- clitoris, uterus, ova etc if we mean biological sex?

It's because the term phenotype came up in a relevant-ish Guardian discussion this morning. I'll try and link to it when I get to my PC.

And thank you - very informative discussion. I've been too busy trying to be 'right on' in the past to think these things through properly.