to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

isshoes

I imagine it would be hurtful. But is it sensible for society to reorganise itself to avoid hurt feelings and offence? If so, gay rights would have got nowhere even now. And actually, that's a good comparison because gay rights were all about accepting that a good number of people are, biologically speaking, attracted to people of the same sex as them.

Transgenderism is quite the opposite. I am biologically male. If I were to consider myself female I would be attempting to deny a biological fact about myself in favour of a preference. I think people live better-adjusted lives if they know themselves and come to terms with how they are. If they don't, reality tends to break in sooner or later, probably more destructively if one has had surgical alterations.

I think the same point applies regardless to whether a person is going m > f or f > m. It all involves a denial of biological sex.

With regards to men who want to be women, I worry that it is caused by wanting to distance oneself from an oppressor class. I well understand that motive and sympathise with it - plenty of men do grow up feeling disgusted with maleness - however, surely a more positive response is to fight for feminism as a man.

In fact I wonder if that's what is going through the mind of

Well put, slugs.

Can you please point me in the direction of these posts where transwomen are supposedly minimising the horrible experiences other posters have experienced as a result of being born physically female? My suspicion is that either they don't exist, they were interpreted a particular way to suit an agenda, or it was the postings of one or two individuals who could not possibly represent the entire transgender community.

Where is the general request onemorecasualty? In any case, cersei's post was more insulting by nature of the poster's decision to use the term 'man who has had a vagina for 5 minutes' to denote transwomen. If you can't see how that's transphobic then there are bigger issues to be resolved.

Mine was general - "I would also like clarification, isshoes"

Agree with slugs on the definition of transphobia. It should not mean "mentioning anything which possibly might upset a trans person about the reality of their own situation". Seriously, do fuck off with that.

No doubt it was the posting of one or two individuals.

If politics around sex and gender are discussed, people get hurt. I don't think that the poster in question experienced "cis-phobia" and I doubt she does either. Nevertheless, hurtful statements were made.

What the poster did was describe transwomen as men who have had a vagina for five minutes. That's different from saying transwomen are not the same as women. I think the latter is still problematic because some transwomen would prefer to be identified just as women, hence the creation of the term 'cisgender'. And that's the point of the whole thread.

Transphobia comes in all shapes and sizes, just like homophobia, racism, sexism, ageism.

Keep it civil Venus

Define transphobia, isshoes. I think you need a new word.

I'll say what I like, thanks.

Well the majority of women might not like being called cis. So biological men don't get to force them to accept it, isshoes.

Some transwomen would no doubt prefer to be identified as just women.

What word should we use then for adult human female with no opinion on her gender identity or who refutes the very concept of gender identity?

Here are some hurtful comments made in the course of the trans debate, albeit not on MN.

terfisaslur.com

Cote, I would have hoped that transwomen might appreciate the fact that although they are not affected by issues relating to the female reproductive system, the majority of women are, and that makes it an entirely legitimate concern for feminism. Feminism fights many causes that affect some but not all women. Not all women need contraception or fertility treatment or access to abortion, not all women need maternity services, some women never experience sexual violence, some women never experience discrimination at work - nevertheless we largely group together and campaign and argue for all those causes because we are women together and we look out for each other. I hope and suspect that the majority of transwomen are fine with that and are shoulder to shoulder with us, and it's just a vocal minority who're trying to fuck up the entire movement by moving into it and making it all about them.

Ok. Call me transphobic then. I'll add it to the list of labels imposed on me by strangers.

If transactivists didn't try to erode women's rights, I would not even know what a neovag is. Or, actually, take much interest in the whole topic of transsexuality. I have known for a long time that transsexuality is a thing that exists, and never felt the need to talk about it.

Until all feminist blogs started to mention the issue because transactivists try to take away our rights.

Without the whole gender nonsense, there would not be a debate on how flawed surgeon's imitation of a female body is, because I would not be interested in it at all.

Yy vestal.

Here you go Venus:

The following are a few examples of transphobic attitudes:

The belief/insistence that trans women are not “real women”
The belief/insistence that trans men are not “real” men
The belief/insistence that non-binary genders are invalid
The belief/insistence that transsexual people are gay people in denial and wish to have sex reassignment surgery to attempt to restore ‘heteronormativity’
The refusal to acknowledge a trans person’s true gender
Refusal to use the correct name for a trans person
Repeated and deliberate mis-gendering of trans people
Exclusion of trans people from activities, services or conversations.

I agree with some of those, isshoes.

What is meant by "real man" or "real woman"?

But they're not real men/women. They are transmen/women who believe they share a gender with biological men/women.

However I don't deliberately misgender, if I meet a transperson I'll call them by their chosen pronoun/name, treat them with the respect I treat anybody else.

Excluded from services such as? Abortions?

@Alis: Actually, transmen do get to have abortions. Or did. I read an account by a transman who had an abortion.

I suppose it is more about transwomen not getting the abortions they do not, and will never need?

And that's transphobic alvis - which can just as easily be as a result of ignorance rather than of hatred.

The trouble is, when the issue at hand is a matter of belief that no one can empirically prove or disprove, one just has to accept that people on both sides of the argument have a right to their beliefs. No one side can trump the other. And a blanket assertion that all the dissenters hold the beliefs they do because of hatred is unfair and intellectually dishonest.

I don't think it's about abortions at all...it refers to any service to which trans people are denied access.

But they're not 'real' men/women. Otherwise why would they be trans? And non-binary gender is the biggest pile of bullshit I have ever heard - by their own definitions, everyone is non-binary.

Alis, I think it's excluded from general services eg library use or whatever. I agree that would be discriminatory.

Isshoes, do you honestly see no points at which trans women's requirements and born-women's requirements conflict - such as the housing of prisoners? That is where this issue differs from other protected characteristics IMO.