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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

999 replies

violetsarentblue · 17/11/2015 22:21

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

OP posts:
HermioneWeasley · 19/11/2015 08:26

TW are not women. They are a subset of men. 90% of the time this doesn't matter, but when it comes to space and services which have been sex segregated for reasons of women's safety, wellbeing and privacy, then it matters a great deal

"Woman " is not a feeling

InternalMonologue · 19/11/2015 08:39

I'm a woman. That's fucking it. I was born a girl, hit puberty, grew into a woman. I'm not "happy with my associated gender", I honestly don't think about it. If I do think about it, it's a load of bullshit. As a child I was into playing football, James Bond and Star Wars as much as I was into dolls. I coveted the big Thomas the Tank wooden train set play table they had in ELC as much as I coveted the fancy toy kitchen. I'm a mother, I wear makeup when I can be bothered but it's an occasion of note if you find me wearing something other than jeans and trainers. Don't try to pigeonhole me into narrow gender constructs that I'm trying to avoid my daughter getting shoved into.

Don't call me a cis-woman. I'm just a fucking woman.

Another standing ovation for Smashingturnips (who also has an excellent nn Grin)

happytocomply · 19/11/2015 08:52

Thank you to everyone on MN who has opened my eyes to this debate. It's fascinating. I'm a woman because of my chromosomes and my genitalia, how anyone can "feel like a woman" is beyond me. Don't call me cis.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 19/11/2015 09:21

Happytocomply,
People like you and me are why these debates on MN are important to raise awareness, let people know they are not alone

marmiteandcheeseplease · 19/11/2015 09:32

I fully expect to get flamed for this, but putting an alternative POV out there... Mostly only addressing the original OP here, but I have to say blanket deletion of any post mentioning the word 'cis' would seem a bit extreme. I think for the vast majority of people, 'cis' is a non issue, and there seem to be a very vocal minority on MN who are going completely bat shit over it. The irony that these same people are complaining about trans women being a vocal minority(!).

Also worth mentioning that 'cis' does not apply only to women, it is also commonly used to refer to 'born' men i.e. 'cis men' as opposed to 'trans men'.

LetGoOrBeDragged · 19/11/2015 09:34

I'm quite happy to accept that someone who is born male can feel they are in the wrong body and would be happier in a female one. In that sense I think you can 'feel like a woman'. Of course a trans woman has limited experience of what it is to be female because they have been born and socialised as male and have missed all the discrimination women experience when it comes to reproduction. However, they may well have experienced a different sort of discrimination and hardship. I think it would be wrong to get into competitive suffering.

I'm live and let live, until it comes to anyone trying to tell me what I am or insisting I change the word I use to describe myself because they prefer something different.

EponasWildDaughter · 19/11/2015 09:37

Lazily i just want to quote HermioneWeasley

with

TW are not women. They are a subset of men. 90% of the time this doesn't matter, but when it comes to space and services which have been sex segregated for reasons of women's safety, wellbeing and privacy, then it matters a great deal

"Woman " is not a feeling

as this sums my feelings up perfectly.

As for the OP, YANBU, the word 'Woman' doesn't need a prefix.

glenthebattleostrich · 19/11/2015 11:12

Trans activists are increasingly reminding me of mens rights activists (I think I said this on another thread). Transplaining has almost replaced mansplaining when it comes to certain groups of people who have penis's explaining to women how to be a woman. It just feels like more people with penis's trying to make me feel bad for being born with a vagina.

I do feel that a small group of a small group are dominating social media and the argument and the majority of us just want to live and let live. After all I think most people realised that people are equal, not the same but equal and all should be treated with respect.

That is not to say that I need bullshit labels applied to me because it makes a tiny proportion of the population feel better. Just like I prefer not to label other people.

To answer the OP's original question, I firmly believe in free speech for all. I may not agree with what other people say but I defend their right to say it (even if they make themselves sound like arseholes in my opinion). I find cis offensive, others don't. Banning takes away from debate which we need, as long as it is respectful.

attheendoftheday · 19/11/2015 13:22

Well, if so many people object to the cis prefix, how about we do away with both cis and trans, and just describe people as a man or a woman? Because trans women are also just women, you know.

VestalVirgin · 19/11/2015 13:27

No, they are not. Very obviously. You can use "woman" for "human being", but then you are speaking a different language from everyone else and no one will understand you.

abbieanders · 19/11/2015 13:54

Because trans women are also just women, you know.

Well, to be honest, I know nothing of the sort and I don't really think that's an established fact.

Could you explain what you think being a woman is?

Alisvolatpropiis · 19/11/2015 14:02

attheendoftheday

No they are not. Are you being sarcastic?

LetGoOrBeDragged · 19/11/2015 14:20

Trans women are coming to womanhood from a completely different set of circumstances than those of us who were born female. Their experiences are not the same as ours. They have every right to choose the terms which they feel best describe them. What they don't have, is tje right to choose the term that best describes me.

IPityThePontipines · 19/11/2015 14:27

"The only time I see it on mn is posters demanding that no one call them cis no one did, you brought it up hmm"

Exactly.

Where exactly on MN are women being referred to as Cis?

The only time it is ever mentioned is when people are complaining about the word.

If MN set a delete function to scrub the word "cis" from the site, most of the posts deleted would be from those discussing the word negatively.

MN have already said that they'll delete all uses of the word as an insult, if you want them to ban the word itself, you would also be banning any discussion of that word.

Also, I think Worra's posts are valid. When some of you are happy to state that the trans issue is the only feminist issue worth considering (as happened on the WEP guest post), I think a dissenting voice is valid and important.

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 14:29

I think of it as similar to my experience of disability, surely even for those who are happy to let tw in the 'female' box now?

I am disabled now and can definitely 'tick' myself in that box. But before i became ill i was ablebodied, there is no way i can say my childhood is the same as someone severely disabled from birth - even when my faulty genes (compare with their mismatched gender) were the same then.

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 14:31

Ha, i had ablebodied-passing-privilege.

attheendoftheday · 19/11/2015 14:39

No they are not. Are you being sarcastic?

No, I'm not being sarcastic. Although I do find it hard not to be when faced with the degree of prejudice against transgender people that's bandied about mn.

Individuals are the best experts in what gender they are. That is the end of the matter as far as I'm aware. Transgender people hardly get an easy ride in society right now, so I think it's safe to assume that if people express they are transgender, it isn't just for shits and giggles.

Any of us could have been born in the body of the opposite sex. I am just lucky that I wasn't. We shouldn't be making things harder for people who didn't have that luck. There is nothing superior about people who happen to have been born in the correct sex body.

VestalVirgin · 19/11/2015 14:41

Does anyone even want ablebodied-passing-privilege? I have seen so many people with invisible disabilities talking about their problems with things like getting a seat when they need (not just want) one because people don't believe they're disabled ...

I don't think you can compare that to transgenderism. You suffer from your disability now, physically, in all the ways people who had the same disability from birth.

However, trans"women" do not suffer from misogyny in all the ways women do. They get the street harrassing if they pass, yes, but they aren't forced to give birth, are not negatively affected by the fact that doctors don't know the symptoms of a heart attack in women, don't have problems with a tax on menstrual hygiene products, etc.

VestalVirgin · 19/11/2015 14:45

Sort of lost my track of thought there, Beyond Thirty; was I was meaning to say is that if you cannot walk, or only walk a certain number of steps one day, you will suffer from that regardless of whether people know - you might even suffer worse if people don't know. Not much of a passing privilege there.

While someone like "Caitlyn" Jenner not only was able to have a typical male career, but also even now will never get to experience any of the oppression women face - because most of it is aimed at our bodies. And the parts that are not, rich people can shelter themselves from.

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 14:53

Yeah, its not the best comparison, but the best i could think of! Grin

I wonder if there is a correlation between people who agree with the "born in the wrong body" school of thought, and those who believe in souls?

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 19/11/2015 14:58

being totally flipant here

I was wondering if it is reincarnation, the soul popped into the wrong body.

now being serious, is this correct in law?
so in Ireland, Gary and Frank love each other very much and want to get married. Gary has always been the most feminine so decides to declare female.
Now Grace and Frank can get married?

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 14:58

I think i was trying to explain "girl baby socialised as a female" to those who say "tw are women" using a similar-ish example rather than using "socialised as female" Grin

VestalVirgin · 19/11/2015 15:01

I wonder if there is a correlation between people who agree with the "born in the wrong body" school of thought, and those who believe in souls?

Depends, I think. I mean, those who believe in reincarnation obviously believe that it can be okay for someone who was a fish before to be reborn as human, so there is no "wrong" body; every body is an experience that person is meant to make.

Not too sure about Christians; I'd think most would believe that God doesn't make mistakes.

I am sort of an agnostic, but don't think souls (if they exist) have sexes (they don't have to reproduce, if they're immortal) and I don't believe in gender, so there is that.

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 15:01

That is certainly correct in some countries, but i did not know there was no gay marriage in ireland!!

Also as has been pointed out before, irish abortion law relates to "women" not aborting. Problem not-so-easily solved there...!

abbieanders · 19/11/2015 15:10

Transgender people hardly get an easy ride in society right now, so I think it's safe to assume that if people express they are transgender, it isn't just for shits and giggles.

Lots of people have hard lives for all kinds of reasons. Including women, because they're women. That doesn't make anyone a woman, though. You're confusing cause and effect.