Organ donation should be opt out.

[m1nniedriver]

Just that really. If people have strong feelings on the matter then they are free to opt out, I really fail to see the issue with it.

JohnCusacksWife

I hope that if the worst were to happen and my ds had to face the prospect of donating my/my dh's organs he would be able to honour our wishes, but equally I would hate for him to be in the situation where organ retrieval went ahead without his consent. The trauma he endured as a consequence of his bio parents' organs being donated (as per their stated wishes) still haunts his nightmares years later.

That his trauma is the direct result of unprofessional conduct by the medical team makes me feel ill, to think of it being compounded by having no voice in his grief is beyond words.

Nanny0gg

Forcing a course of action that takes an intolerable situation and compounds it is less defensible.

But Enjolrass, your brother was a baby. There was no consent or chance of opting-in or out by him, so what the hospital did was wrong on every level.

But for adults? When you're dead, you're dead. And relatives over-riding your wishes is morally indefensible in my opinion.

I was answering the point about 'why would anyone care where you organs end up' which I quoted.

What about those adults who still have parents alive?

Or have children who are bothered about where the organs end up?

I totally agree next of kin should have a say. If you have opted in, you have opted in.

But saying people shouldn't give a shit because they dead is ridiculous because other people are effected too.

The 'well your dead you don't care' argument isn't valid and that thinking is what led to the organ scandal.

The NHS are horrible for covering things up. I don't trust them one bit to stick to the rules.

Opt in wouldn't work because presumed consent does not hold up in the eyes of the law or, in many cases, doesn't fit in with people's moral compasses.

I understand what you are saying JohnCusacksWife

I guess I am looking at it from my own, probably over emotional, point of view.

My son was too young to have expressed any wishes, but I can imagine feeling the same if he had been 20.

His death was beyond my control, I had no choices left to make about his life any more, I would have been devestated if that final choice had been taken away from me.

If he had been older, he didn't opt out, and I had shown up at the hospital to find they had taken his organs... well I can't comprehend how it would feel.

As it was, I was able to ask, consent, go through what would happen, even make (probably stupid) requests such as someone holding his hand, and particular music playing, which they did.

We do need more organs, it does save lives and it is important.

But when I think about the family members left behind having the choices about their loved ones being taken away from them it makes me feel so sad.

I don't know what else we can do to get more organ donors. It's hard to be objective when it's a subject that is so close to me.

Ot absolutely should be opt out. The decision is exactly the same as it is now but it capitalises on those to lazy to bother sorting it out. Anyone who feels strongly about it will opt out anyway.

I'm all for bodily autonomy but not for a corpse.

I'm all for bodily autonomy but not for a corpse.

I sincerely hope you didn't read my post before you posted that Jengnr although he had died he was still my son not just a 'corpse'.

Could you please be a little more sensitive in the language you use when people are coming on to offer a personal view about something particularly traumatic.

Agree OP. I hate to think of people suffering and dying because of an admin error and perfectly usable organs are being wasted.

Agree OP. I hate to think of people suffering and dying because of an admin error and perfectly usable organs are being wasted.

admin errors?

So what if you opt out and there is an admin error?

Agree. They take the organs when you're dead. What use do you have for them then anyway?

Personally, provided they aren't killing people outright to harvest organs, it should just be a given. When you die your organs are donated to people who need them. End of.

A corpse doesn't need body autonomy. It needs to be buried or burned so it doesn't spread disease.

Elsa, you have my deepest sympathies and I can't pretend to understand how it must feel to be in your position. But ultimately, for consenting adults, i believe that it is their decision, and their decision alone, what happens (or not) to their body after death. It is not a decision that can be taken away from relatives because it was never theirs to make in the first place.

Elsa - so sorry to hear this. Didn't mean to be insensitive either.

We should still have the choice of course.

I am a donor. My Dad was too - although pretty much all that was usable when he died were his corneas. It was hard but what he wanted.

I have discussed it with both my teens and both agree. My DD has also given blood and signed up to the bone marrow register, (17).

I hope that we are never in the position to put this into practice.

Elsa I was responding to first page I didn't see your post.

I do still feel that organ donation should be mandatory though.

Enjolrass - sorry - all my posts are badly written this evening! I meant the sort of error that means you fill in but lose the card. You have an old one stuck in a wallet with the wrong address or you don't have it on you at the time. But yes I see your point if people op out and he card goes missing there could also be a problem.

Sorry I didn't mean to derail an important discussion.

I just feel that some might be put off giving their viewpoint with those sort of words being used, as always happens on these threads.

I think after the recent programmes about organ donation there was a surge in people signing up to be on the register.

Aside from those programmes I have seen very little about donation for years apart from maybe an old poster in the doctors surgery.

Does there need to be more awareness and advertising? I think in the majority of cases of someone is passionate enough to go and sign themselves up to be a donor and their relatives are aware of that, the relative is far more likely to give consent because they will want to honour their loved ones wishes.

As it stands we don't discuss it enough as none of us want to think about it.

Maybe if their were two lists that we all have to sign up to with either a yes or no might be a better compromise than an assumed right?

"Opt in clearly does work. It, albeit a soft opt in policy, works extremely well in Spain for example who is one of, if not the, best in terms of organ donation."

And how does Spain protect those without capacity to consent; those who have a learning disability and wouldn't understand how to opt out?

I think it would be incredibly disrespectful if a loved one wanted their organs donated and the NOK vetoed those wishes. It basically says that the deceased person's NOK don't give a stuff about what the person wanted.

The NOK may be in a lot of emotional pain during the grieving process, but that shouldn't give them the right to override a person's donation wishes.

If DH overrode my wish to donate my organs, I may have to come back and haunt the bugger

Shiney I might have a read up on it. I presume they have rules for people who lack capacity to consent. My heart says; we should be opt out but my head worries about the implications for certain people.

It happens every day. Relatives in shock, grieving and angry should not be the ones making the decision. They should be counselled and given all the support and time they need/possible but they should not be the ones to make the choice. Obviously in cases if learning difficulties etc there should be exceptions.

I had a very very close friend if mine pass away waiting for a new heart, he was 22, married and his wife was pregnant.

I'm also a nurse and have seen relatives understandably upset and traumatised despite counselling refuse to donate organs of card carriers. It's very hard to watch.

Wales will soon be a soft opt out system

No Elsa I didn't read your post and I'm truly sorry my choice of words offended you.

I was responding to the nonsense claims that using organs from a dead person based on the opt out system is akin to rape so my words were harsh to reflect this and I didn't think about the more sensitive aspect of this discussion.

Both my children (eldest is almost 3) are on the register and I feel very strongly that if something terrible
happened and I lost them but their organs could be used to save
another family's grief they should be and I believe that to be true for everybody. An opt out system would
allow more scope for that.

I ought to have thought a bit more though and chosen my words more carefully. I am sorry and I'm sorry for your loss xx

Opt out is wrong because it is a system that starts with the presumption that our bodies are only ours if we make the effort to say so on a government form. Otherwise, our bodies belong to the state and the state is free to do what it wishes with those bodies as long as a state sanctioned test says it's dead.

That's just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned, and our bodies not belonging to us shouldn't even be a consideration.

It's too complicated, and people currently sign up to be organ donors without really knowing what it means. I know I did when I was younger, and my thought process was a simple as 'I won't need my organs when I'm dead so they can have what they want', and for a long time I thought no more of it.

Then I realised that my choice to be an organ donor could be the thing that kept my mother and my husband waiting around in a hospital for hours after they'd just heard one of the most devastating things they could ever hear. Either that or they'd have the choice of going home knowing that my body was still working but I was mostly dead. It never occurred to me that it could be the the difference between my last heartbeat being taken while I was surrounded by loving family or by complete strangers who'd only known my name for an hour.

I don't believe that if we switched to an opt out system that there would be enough public information to ensure that every single citizen knew what they and their family could be facing if they don't opt out. If we leave it as opt in, with family having the final say, then living people have the option of choosing the thing that's going to hurt them the least.