Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we should bring back the Death Penalty for proven very serious offenders

293 replies

ILiveAtTheBeach · 10/11/2015 21:12

They have raped and murdered. Yet, they have no money worries, a roof over their head, 3 square meals a day, Sky TV, PS4, arranged activities....why are we so bloody soft? We have an over crowding problem in jails. Why can't we give these monsters a lethal injection and be done with it? Sometimes they are released back into society under a false identity (to protect them). What about our protection? They could move in next door. Who would be up for getting rid?

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 11/11/2015 12:05

I wonder how many of those in favour of the death penalty would be Ok with it if it were their child wrongly put to death by the state for rape/murder?

I don't even think you need to check with those people about wrongful convictions.

The easiest argument I ever won with my mother was on her support of capital punishment.

"So are you saying that for any murder, the offender should be put to death?"
"Yes, a life for a life"
"So if I snapped one day and killed , you'd support me being executed"
"No"

Right.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/11/2015 12:25

The Tottenham 3 would have been hanged for the murder of PC Keith Blakelock as murder of a policeman is viewed as an aggravating factor. They were convicted in 1987 and their convictions quashed in 1991 when forensic tests cast doubt on the authenticity of the detectives interview notes.

How would you have felt if you were on that jury? I would have felt awful if I had found them guilty and they were hanged and they had later been shown to be wrongfully convicted.

RuthlessBaggage · 11/11/2015 12:51

It's impossible to say with certainty, but there is no evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, and there is evidence that the possibility of a capital sentence makes juries less likely to convict. That means that you're more likely to have murderers walking around free, not less, and after rather a shorter period than eight years.

No cost saving. No effect on offending (recidivism amongst freed murderers is low because they tend not to be let out if they're still murderous).

My blood runs cold at the idea of someone having the job of executioner. I would cross the road to avoid them, put it that way, and I'd want their psychopathic tendencies mental health closely and regularly monitored.

I think that the modern distaste for any corporal or capital punishment is part of a better understanding of and respect for body autonomy. When we deprive someone of their liberty we still leave them in control of their own bodies and protect them where possible from physical or sexual assault. We don't beat them; we don't kill them.

China is keen on the death penalty. There are forced terminations there too. It's part of the same mindset, and one that I reject utterly.

On a personal note, I was raped, and given a (medical, not judiciary) death sentence by my rapist. There is nothing I look forward to more than the news of his death. But if his execution were proposed I'd be the one outside Downing Street with the petition protesting against. Because it's utterly and always wrong.

Topseyt · 11/11/2015 13:04

I was also thinking, not all murders are the same but I think someone else has mentioned it before me.

What if a person (man or woman) has been in an abusive relationship for ages and one day reaches breaking point? In that moment, they manage to lash out and their abuser is killed.

I guess it comes more within the definition of manslaughter, maybe self defence, but some would call it murder. The death penalty would be a travesty in such cases, but conceivably some judges might apply it? Stranger things than that have happened.

No to reintroduction of the death penalty. Not a risk we can afford to take in a supposedly civilised society.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/11/2015 14:09

Topseyt
The scenario you propose (killing an abuser) was/is a very problematic one. The old provocation defence that downgraded murder to manslaughter used to require the provocation to have caused a sudden and temporary loss of control. So an abusive person who reacts to their partner arguing back by punching and killing them might be able to argue provocation but an abused woman who waited for her partner to fall asleep before killing him despite years of abuse couldn't claim provocation.

The defence has now been narrowed considerable by the Loss of Control defence which also specifically allows for a fear of serious violence to be qualifying trigger.

Gingermum · 11/11/2015 14:38

Iliveathebeach 'three meals a day, sky tv, PS4. I have done some teaching in male prisons. They do not have sky tv or any computer games. Many of them are locked up 23 hours a day. It's a pretty shit existence. About 50% of all male prison inmates have learning difficulties and/or can't read. Most of them have come up through the 'care' system.

No I'm not making excuses. But I am saying, stop reading the DM and understand that prison is as far from 'cushy' as you can get.

Secondly there's a problem with 'proven' as a few MNs have pointed out. The men who were convicted of the murder of PC Blakelock were unjustly convicted, as were the Guildford Four. In 1992 a man with LD, Stefan Kiscko was released after serving 16 years for a crime he did not commit - the rape and murder of Lesley Molseed. It was called the 'worst miscarriage of justice of all time' as he was fitted up by the police and two girls lied under oath 'for a laugh' to say he had exposed himself to them.

Even back in 1955, there were strong feelings that Ruth Ellis, the last woman in Britain to be hanged, was being punished for her 'lifestyle and being a bad mother' than for the crime of killing her abusive lover, David Blakeny.

There are many many people who would be dead if Capital Punishment were brought back. And many already think that the US Lethal Injection punishment is inhumane, including Amnesty

kslatts · 11/11/2015 15:28

Life should mean life and there should be no luxuries at all, no currency, no smoking, no drugs, nothing, they should receive just enough food to keep them alive and death should feel like something they pray for every single day of their remaining lives.

I completely agree with this.

So somebody who has murdered their partner because they can no longer cope with being raped and beaten should live like this?

No, because they should not be sentenced to life in the first place.

I don't know how I would feel if my daughter was raped and murdered. Killing the defendent would not bring her back from the dead.

True, but what if the defendant had committed a similar crime before and the punishment he or she received meant he or she was allowed to re-offend. I do not agree with the death penalty because of the risk of wrongly convicting people, I also think that jurors might find someone 'not guilty' because they do not agree with sentencing that person to death, however I do believe for serious crimes such as child abuse and some murders, the person should be punished with a life sentence that means life.

KathyBeale · 11/11/2015 15:42

Isn't there an argument that having no possibility of release affects prisoners' behaviour? They've got nothing to lose, no reason to stay in line - so arguably it could make them more dangerous.

I also think that when it comes to murder and manslaughter it's sometimes hard to know what's worse.

Obviously people like Ian Brady are mentally ill and very, very dangerous. So I think yes, there's an argument that we shouldn't be killing mentally ill people.

So, what about that footballer who drove after he'd been drinking and killed two little boys. Is that worse? He knew he shouldn't be driving. He wasn't ill. He just thought he was above the law and he killed two children. Should he have got the death penalty? He was arrogant and stupid - but he just made a mistake. He didn't plan it. He didn't seek out children to kill like Ian Brady...so maybe Ian Brady should get the death penalty...

There are so many grey areas that the only right way to deal with this is to NOT have the death penalty.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/11/2015 15:54

kslatts
I do believe for serious crimes such as child abuse and some murders, the person should be punished with a life sentence that means life.

They already are punished with a whole life term. That's why Rose West has a whole life tariff as does Mark Bridger who killed April Jones.

Para 4(1) of Schedule 21 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 states
"(1)If—.
(a)the court considers that the seriousness of the offence (or the combination of the offence and one or more offences associated with it) is exceptionally high, and.
(b)the offender was aged 21 or over when he committed the offence,.
the appropriate starting point is a whole life order.
(2)Cases that would normally fall within sub-paragraph (1)(a) include—.
(a)the murder of two or more persons, where each murder involves any of the following—.
(i)a substantial degree of premeditation or planning,.
(ii)the abduction of the victim, or.
(iii)sexual or sadistic conduct,.
(b)the murder of a child if involving the abduction of the child or sexual or sadistic motivation,.
(c)a murder done for the purpose of advancing a political, religious [F1, racial] or ideological cause, or.
(d)a murder by an offender previously convicted of murder."

So the most serious murderers (who are not found to be mentally ill) will die in prison.

Dawndonnaagain · 11/11/2015 15:55

kslatts I suggest you read the article I put up, we send prisoners to prison, not prison camps, we should offer rehabilitation, we are imprisoning human beings, not animals. The reoffending rates in Scandinavia are less than half of those in the UK.

BeckerLleytonNever · 11/11/2015 17:16

OP, I know where you're coming from.

people shouldn't do the crime and then claim they've got a loving family to think of.

Maybe not capital punishment as such but definitely corporal punishment.

maybe the punishment should fit the crime.

and OP, I agree with you, they have a well cushy time in prison, I know for a fact.

BeckerLleytonNever · 11/11/2015 17:19

Life should mean life and there should be no luxuries at all, no currency, no smoking, no drugs, nothing, they should receive just enough food to keep them alive and death should feel like something they pray for every single day of their remaining lives.

This ^ is spot on. (didn't read all posts before posting my 1st post!)

Id add no human rights, theyre not human beings, theyre monsters.

MaudGonneMad · 11/11/2015 17:19

What do you mean by 'corporal punishment', Becker? Flogging?

Andrewofgg · 11/11/2015 17:22

No. Never. Just not. For all the reasons other posters have stated.

And that goes for corporal too Becker - apart from other considerations what would you do about the minority of really violent offenders who are female?

And prison is not cushy; that "fact" is a tabloid myth. People who have served time still plead not guilty next time and try to avoid going back, don't they?

Dawndonnaagain · 11/11/2015 17:44

Becker an number of us have stated that we've worked in the system and yet we have no experience of luxuries or a cushy time. It's nonsense.

GoringBit · 11/11/2015 17:52

Life in prison is far from luxurious, and I'd say anyone who claims that they know its a cushy life is either mistaken or following an agency. Inmates have very little to call their own, and privileges have to be earned and maintained with good behaviour. There are also way too many inmates that need MH care, not prison, and self-harm is rampant, but there's no easy fix for that.

I can't add to the eloquent posts as to why people are against the death penalty, so I'll just add my voice to the others. Not in my name. Ever.

FluffyNinja · 11/11/2015 18:24

Apparently the OP is a former bank manager who taught cooking skills to inmates. Yeah right...

More likely another shite DM journo. Wink

TalkinPeas · 11/11/2015 19:45

This thread does raise an interesting question. How would modern society handle Hitler or evil of his equal if they were to be tried on British soil?

THey would be tried, the evidence weighed, aired and chewed over
and then they would have to live with the consequences of their action for many many years

a cyanide pill is a cop out
prison for people like Rose West - whose crimes were all about control - is a lifelong lack of control

if a killer thinks they will get to feel what its like to be killed they might get a kick from that
if they know that they might spend 40 years watching Jeremy Kyle, they might think twice

Cerseirys · 11/11/2015 20:06

OP is a troll, right? I can't believe anyone actually believes that prisoners get access to Sky TV and PS4s. I go past Pentonville on my commute to work everyday and it looks an utterly grim place. I highly doubt that behind those grey and forbidding walls are prisoners living in the lap of luxury.

MrsHathaway · 11/11/2015 20:08

Cerseirys - haven't you ever read the tabloids? All prisons are holiday parks Hmm

redstrawberry10 · 11/11/2015 20:08

Id add no human rights, theyre not human beings, theyre monsters.

you don't know the definition of human rights then. They are rights humans have for simply being human. even the biggest human monsters are human.

laffymeal · 11/11/2015 20:13

These threads are so pointless. The OP is clearly on the wind-up. It's a bit like "smacking" threads, they always descent into chaos.

FWIW I am firmly against the death penalty. Listing reasons is pointless, the posters who support it aren't interested in the counter-argument, it just gets all emotive and personal. They don't seem to realise you cannot run a justice system on the basis of how you "feel".

IonaNE · 11/11/2015 20:14

OP, are you also suggesting the UK leaving the EU? Because no EU member state can have the death penalty, so that's that then.

The death penalty, no. Making prisons far less comfortable - definitely.

IonaNE · 11/11/2015 20:17

Cerseirys I go past Pentonville on my commute to work everyday and it looks an utterly grim place.
Uhm... from the outside?
Yes, for some people in there it is luxury: 3 meals a day, gym - things they can't afford outside.

Cerseirys · 11/11/2015 20:22

Well yes I imagine they get three square meals a day but it's hardly like being put up at the Ritz! Which is what OP seems to think it is.

Swipe left for the next trending thread