...to be upset about her termination?

[princesspineapple]

I'm 21 weeks pregnant, and one of my best friends has just had a termination.
I'm all for pro-choice and it's her body etc etc... But she has basically used this as contraception (they've not used any protection for a year) and I don't really agree with that.
Putting aside my (and everyone's) feelings about her pregnancy choices... AIBU to be upset that she turned to me first in her "time of need"?
I've had MCs in the past, and am over the moon to be pregnant... So am finding it really hard to support her when she says things like "well it's only pea sized" when my little pea is now wriggling away in my belly!
Am I being a bit of an over-emotional pregnant lady and need to buck up and be a better friend, or is she actually being a cow?

"it's entirely about punishing women they see as immoral."

I'm tired of seeing stuff like this. No, it's not about 'punishing women'. Pro-life people think the foetus has a right to life. You may disagree with that view but stop spouting nonsense about it being 'entirely about punishing women'.

I would argue that someone who is pg because they cba to use contraception is the very person who needs to hear about it!

To answer your question I am aiming at prevention of requiring another abortion. People who deliberately choose not to use contraception already know contraception exists and if they have chosen to not bother with it then I think they do need to hear judgement.

When the person is no longer pg, they may or may not bother with contraception in the future. I don't know if you still have to get a termination signed off by 2 doctors but maybe that's the time to find out why someone isn't bothering, with a view to them not being in the same position again.

For me it isn't seperate.

Cerseirys There is no limit specified in Canadian law, but it would be almost impossible to find a doctor who would agree to perform a termination late on unless it was for medical reasons.

Thanks for the explanations bumbley and spare

fusionconfusion
"I have a close relative who has lost two BABIES at 21 and 23 weeks and it would not be appropriate to tell her they are not BABIES in any conversation, regardless of my opinions on abortion and choice."

Well, obviously. If a woman thinks of it as a baby no one is going to tell her it's not a baby! But the point is that anti-abortionists hysterically screaming about "murdering babies" are not helping the debate, some people who have an unwanted pregnancy and an abortion think of it as a pregnancy or a foetus, and it helps them to do so. I would never tell a grieving mother that her baby was actually a foetus, but neither would I tell a woman getting an abortion that her foetus was a baby (unless of course she thought of it as a baby and referred to it as such).

I would argue that someone who is pg because they cba to use contraception is the very person who needs to hear about it!

I agree with you. However it is entirely irrelvant to the abortion debate. Does she need an abortion? Yes? Should she have legal access to safe abortion? Yes? There is no question of conception in the debate. Abortion should never be about how someone got pregnant. Abortion is about someone who is already pregnant having safe legal access to medical staff who will end the pregnancy. Contraception is a separate issue.

Please do not misunderstand me. I 100% agree there is a need for better sex education, better care taken with contraception, etc. but it is a separate issue. Someone who doesnt want a baby but isnt using contraception does need to rethink that strategy. But it is entirely separate from whether they can or should have an abortion.

I agree that she absolutely should be able to get an abortion and that no one has the right to restrict her autonomy over her own body.

LetGo
Read this article on how some men sabotage contraception as a form of domestic abuse, before launching yet another attack on these terrible harlots who love abortion clinics so much that they just can't be bothered to take the pill.
It isn't always that simple. I'm sure there are ohh, several women who fall into that category, but introducing some draconian system to punish them will inadvertently punish many many more women who are in desperate and terrible situations.

broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/how-well-does-lil-wayne-know-vaginas-we-asked-a-gynecologist

Exactly, spare. It would be allowing judgement over the tiny percentage of women who refuse to use contraception and instead have abortions, to inform decision making that would have such a terrible effect on women for whom contraception fails to work, who suffer domestic abuse and marital rape, or for young girls who have not had the correct education or are simply too scared.

I agree with you SurlyCue. There is a focus on deserving/undeserving women (for example rape survivors deserve abortions, but women who choose to have unprotected sex don't) which is not only beside the point but also quite dangerous. The point is that we should all have a right to automony over own bodies. Just because a woman makes a mistake or a bad decision doesn't mean that she should lose that right. It's a slippery slope when we strip away human rights because of mistakes people have made. It would also be completely impossible to enforce a rule that only "deserving" women can get abortions - would you force them to prove they were raped or prove they used contraception and it failed? Complete minefield.

Not only a minefield, but ridiculous logic - like saying the less responsible, careful and thoughtful you are, the more appropriate it is for you to have children.

"I'm tired of seeing stuff like this."

I'm tired of oh so virtuous pro-life types completely ignoring the fact that by campaigning for abortion bans they are simply advocating women seeking illegal and dangerous abortions.

Banning abortion does not make abortion go away.

I've not RTFT but I was in a similar-ish situation recently - had just had my 2nd MC, baby very much wanted, had a very bad time and ended up with an emergency op for haemorrhaging. Less than a week later I was seeing a friend with her toddler and baby (MC would have been my 2nd child) who told me all about how she thought she might be pregnant and she definitely didn't want it and wouldn't keep it. She wasn't using any contraception.
Luckily she wasn't pg, but had she been I would 100% have supported her right to choose - I think abortion should be legal and accessible for everyone, regardless of their situation. That was never in question.
But I did think she was a tactless, insensitive bitch for bringing it up to me, at that time, knowing full well what I had JUST been through. I've never quite forgiven her.
So OP I don't think you were being unreasonable. There is a time, a place and an appropriate audience, and you are not it. Equally, she isn't being unreasonable to come to you for support, but you are well within your (moral!) rights to tell her that actually, you're not the person to speak to about this.

Excellent point KidLorneRoll. Also, for those who think abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape or incest - how would you go about proving that? Would you need some sort of certificate from the police before you could have an abortion? Bearing in mind that the majority of rapes go unreported.

Hang on. Where have I advocated a draconian system to punish women or said that women who are the victims of domestic abuse should be made to feel shame for not using contraception?

What I have said, is that women who choose not to use contraception (and abuse victims are not free to choose) should feel ashamed for not bothering and then being in a situation where they need a termination. There are clearly people (albeit a monority) who do this, otherwise the OP wouldn't be posting. I stand by my judgement of these people.

Nowhere have I said they shouldn't be allowed to access one.

I don't really get the "it's so insensitive and hurtful to talk about abortion to someone who is pregnant/has had a miscarriage" or that having miscarried makes you anti-choice. Obviously it may be the case for some people, but wouldn't be for me (two births, one miscarriage at 12 weeks). If anything being pregnant (including one serious pregnancy complication) made me even more viscerally pro choice. I can't imagine being forced to go through it if I didn't really really want it, and I would be happy to support a friend who terminated.

(though I agree that if someone, as per a previous poster, had actually talked to me about it literally just after I'd miscarried I'd probably have found it more than a little insensitive)

Some people on this thread seem to be arguing against things that haven't even been said.

Leedy, that's how you feel and others, including the OP, feel differently.

Sorry x-post

What I have said, is that women who choose not to use contraception (and abuse victims are not free to choose) should feel ashamed for not bothering and then being in a situation where they need a termination. There are clearly people (albeit a monority) who do this, otherwise the OP wouldn't be posting. I stand by my judgement of these people.

I don't get that, personally. I feel like I grew out of judging people's life choices a long time ago. I have no real idea of the factors that have come together to cause that person to make that choice and it has very little to do with me anyway. Judging people in this way seems more and more to me like a terribly dull hobby some people have, tbh.

Well said Smillas.

Right. Because neither of you would judge someone else's life choices ever? I sincerely doubt that. Everyone makes judgements about someone else's behaviour/decisions even if it's at a basic 'oh, I wouldn't do that' level and why.

Judging people for the clothes they wear or how they decorate their houses might be viewed as a dull hobby. However we are talking about the ending of potential human lives - personally I think that's something worth having an opinion about.

This "potential human life" is inside the body of an actual human. So I think the actual human gets to decide. That's about it really.

We may judge people in the way you say bumbley, but it shouldn't be brought into debates about abortion, and it certainly shouldn't be used an argument against abortion.

Ignoring the point about unsafe abortions Bumbley? I am surprised.

As AnotherEmma says, it's a potential life verses an actual life. Who do you think is in the best position to decide whether a child has a chance at a decent, loving life? The mother, or you/the courts/the lawmakers?