To say something to my friend about her filthy cluttered house

[Mrskeats]

Before I go on I can assure you that this is not some kind of stealth boast about my superior household skills
I have a friend who has 4 children one is a young baby.
Her house is an absolute mess and filthy. The baby has been in hospital twice with infections and I am very surprised that the health visitor has not flagged up the house as an issue
The children are loved but they look unkempt and need haircuts etc
They also don't have friends over because I suspect they are ashamed of the place
The husband seems to me a bit of a hoarder and they are constantly ordering more rubbish from eBay
The children rarely go out so I have taken them out several times over the summer to give their mum a break
I would be happy to help sort the place out
How can I broach this without offending her?

Haven't rtft yet You could make her one of those personal voucher books for christmas, the iou ones? 3 of each iou's?

I owe you 1 coffee and catch up, 1 hours childminding, 1 choice to pick what film we watch, 1 hours cleaning, 1 chance to pick another song. Just random examples.

Tell her you insist she use them. Then you're giving her the chance to use voucher and let you clean (you can ask her what is okay to throw out and what not, gently question why tat can't be thrown out/lead into a discussion) without being too direct.

how old is baby? would a hv have been round in last few months if newborn, if so then yes theres a risk that eventually ss may be involved if things are as bad as you say

as i said before these children are loved (you said this op) but neglect can come into it if their needs arent being met by other ways

are the other children in clean clothes for school/nursery? do they get regular meals? hair/teeth brushed etc

or is it just messy house/hoarding hubby

could your friend be suffering from pnd and want help but doesnt know how to go about it?

has the health visitor actually been to the house or did they go to the health centre ?...the HV may not be aware of whats happening.....just a point ...if the husband is a hoarder its not only the mess/dirt etc that is a problem....there is a fire risk and also if it is so cluttered there could be risks of accidents, clutter on stairs/falls etc....how about OP has a word with the HV....if the HV has been to the house i wouldnt be surprised if they havent already reported it....HV have to do a Safeguarding children and young people course....and she would be in breach of her position if she hasnt at least spoken to the parents or her superiors if there really is a problem

Mrskeats I have not read all the posts but I have read some.

So in answer to your original post How can I broach this without offending her? You can't - you will almost certainly offend her unless she feels so overwhelmed she does not care! But that doesn't mean you should not mention it to her. She may be offended but she may also be relieved. She probably realises this is not normal but having someone else voice it could help her. I think sometimes when we live in clutter (my house is quite cluttered, but clean, mostly!)... we can begin to feel clutter is normal. When we clear the clutter it does help to potentially clear one's mind a bit. You can feel better and more relaxed and at peace when the home is better!

I do think talking to your friend would be good.

Here are my suggestions of what I would do if this were my friend ...

Don't ignore the possibility that your friend, as a new mum, may be overwhelmed, she may be suffering from post natal depression (there may be ways to tell how she is doing without asking direct questions!). If this is the case this would need to be addressed first. I got almost rather agoraphobic after the birth of my first child and slightly down posisbly because the birth was pretty hard for me but whatever birth she had she could have PND. For your friend, having had four children before doesn't mean she would be immune to post natal depression and if you have known her a long time you may know how she was when the other children were born (although, of course, each pregnancy is different!).

I don't know, I've had a three friends who really struggled with house cleanliness/tidiness when they had small children and their houses are now fine. One, I did come and clean the kitchen occasionally (without her seeing), but only when we came around for lunch.

I did also pay for a friend to have a cleaner for 5 hours just after she had her twins, but she had asked me for that as her baby gift

I think some people do struggle when they have little children (and some little children are difficult). .......which is one of the reasons they have mother and baby spaces at the supermarket

Had a friend like this years ago - she never improved too busy reading books and magazines to care about housework. Her sister was the same with 6 kids cats kittens and a really filthy house. Her sister did clean up the house when her last kid left home and its really nice now. I think some people are happy to live like this - each to their own I suppose. You could offer to help her get straight for Xmas, suggest a cheap mobile hairdresser for the kids etc etc. that would be one way of offering without causing offence. But don't be surprised if it doesn't stay neat clean and tidy as some people just don't see housework as a priority HTH

She is obviously not a "real" friend as real friends can say to each other stuff like, "come on let's clean this fucking shithole" or " fuck me has the Hoover broke?" Or "shit I wipe my feet when I leave your house not before I come in " just tell her.

Mrskeats may I suggest you think in advance about what you can say and plan it out so that you do not go far and say too much all in one go.

And of course read her reactions as you speak because blurting it all out could be very heartless if she is very offended.

If she secretly feels quite desperate about it she may be more willing to discuss it. The fact she lets you in to her house makes me think she doesn't feel it is so bad... from my watching of hoarding and cleaning programme (I love them) people can sometimes become very unwilling to let people into their homes if they are very messy and cluttered.

I do find watching decluttering and cleaning programmes make me want to clean more!

There are loads of decluttering thread on Mumsnet. take a look to get some ideas. There are some of Marie Kondo, the Japanese expert in tidying and decluttering, threads here.

If I were desperate I think a friend offering to help would be brilliant.

So please do think about positive solutions to 'offer' so you are not just dropping info on her and then leaving her to it (e.g. I could help you with XYZ, we could get the kids involved too in some simple tidying up etc).

Start small, one job at a time, or one small room or one small area of a room.

Offering support and encouragement could be just what she needs.

Be careful you do not get sucked into doing everything for her.

Good luck.

To be fair Regina, not all people have that sort of relationship with their friends, by any means. Doesn't mean it's any less of a friendship.

I'm not naturally tidy at all, so I am not being all sniffy about other people's belongings and writing them off as junk. Hoarding stuff isn't just being a bit untidy and cluttered. I often think when reading these threads that the people who are so outraged at the thought of intervening when someone lives in terrible conditions really aren't thinking of the same type of house that I am thinking of when I refer to hoarding.

The hoarder that I care for doesn't just have a lot of stuff. She buys a lot, and can't bear to part with anything. And I mean anything. Hundreds of empty milk cartons, toilet roll tubes, thousands of magazines. If she smoked, there would indeed be twenty ashtrays overflowing. Dozens of plates, with leftover food rotting on them. I've seen a loaf of bread sit, unopened, in the kitchen turn blue, then black, then turn to mush, and still she was angry at the suggestion that it needed to go in the bin. There are maggots and flies. There is broken glass on the floor. If the house went on fire, there would be no hope of escape. It is an absolute health hazard. Forcing children to live in conditions like that is not simply 'each to their own' and 'anyone who objects is a judgey bitch' , it is dangerous and damaging to them, and it is neglect. It's maybe not intentional neglect but it is an inability to care for them.

Now, I don't know if the house the OP refers to is anywhere near as bad as this. But even if it's not, hoarding is a downward cycle, and getting help before it gets to the point where it ruins lives seems like a sensible thing to do.

It is not 'nasty' to consider social services involvement. SS aren't a punishment , they are there to protect children. If children are living in unhealthy conditions they need protection, even if that hurts their parents feelings.

Why don't you talk to her? Ask her if she has any ideas about how it can be tackled and take it from there. See what she would like you to do to help. Just going in and cleaning up isn't a good solution because it would be very upsetting for the friend. Offer for your daughter to watch her kids while you help tackle a room together and see how she responds.

Love all the people saying "Just roll up your sleeves and help!" It's likely that we are talking about serious mess here, not just a few dishes in the sink. Doing a serious clean-up job is something that has to be discussed in advance.

No advice for the OP, but I don't think you're wrong to be concerned. It can't be nice for the kids to grow up in such a tip. How are they supposed to get homework and things done in years to come?

I agree with the Dowager these threads always seem to enrage lots of people and make them extremely defensive. I can only imagine that an awful lot of MNers must live in totally chaotic shitholes because they do seem to get rather tetchy when other people suggest that a) it's not great for the children and b) it might actually be their fault if they don't keep on top of the most basic chores that affect hygiene and continue to fill their homes with unnecessary clutter and crap.

Also, why should you help? Unless there s a very good temporary reason for it, like a recent bout of depression or illness affecting mobility, people need to get a grip and learn to sort their own mess out. We all have homes of our own to keep on top of!

It's really not that simple. It's like saying if you're worried your friend has an eating disorder why not make her some sandwiches, it can't be healthy being so thin.

I have a friend like this. 2 kids and another on the way. The place is dirty, not just messy. I dont want to visit because of this and I feel bad not visiting but its just so bad. Their bath tub is full of dirt and sand and sitting down on the sofa is risky as you never know what was spilled there and left. The floor is covered with dirt and trash and there are used nappies here and there.

She says its normal to have a bit mess with kids and I agree yes but not filthy.

They did have a visit from social services 8 months ago or so due to this but she still sees no issue in the way they live.

And i defo am U to judge...

I agree leave I think it resonates with a lot on here.

Agree with leave too.

You can spot a culprit by how defensive they get.

For some reason we're supposed to dance around the adult, walk on eggshells and certainly not offend them by intimating that they live in a dirty home.

We're supposed to prioritise their feelings, over the actual needs of the other people who reside there, and who (if they're children) have absolutely no say in, nor control over the matter.

They fact that they would be so offended by someone suggesting they live in what is considered to be socially unacceptable mess/dirt/filth/squalor (delete depending on how bad it is), suggests they know there is a problem they're not doing anything about. And it impacts on everyone else in the house. They absolutely do not want it pointed out, because it will make them feel so bad.

Interesting that everyone person on this thread who grew up on this environment wishes people had stepped in.

SlightF0x - Have you tried helping your daughter record her memories instead? Taking photos of old shoes/boots and keeping them in a scrap book - and perhaps writing about an event when she wore them and including that in it. Old clothes could be cut up and made into some bunting, or turned into a quilt. Old jumpers could be turned into cushions, etc.

It must be excruciating for the children, having parents who pretend that filth and squalor are acceptable but knowing that other people are appalled by it
The sense of shame and confusion must be very damaging

Yes, exactly.

Children go to other people's homes and see what is normal, and realise their home is well outside normal. And not in a way that has a single redeeming feature.

Can you discuss with hv? You say baby has been in hospital for infections - they may be flagged

You do have a duty of care to do something - if it is as bad as you say

I'm surprised school hasn't picked up on it if children are unkempt and need hair cut etc

It is one of these things that crop up on mumsnet quite often and it's weird because it seems perfectly acceptable here to judge people for eg letting their children play out (lazy parenting), letting them play on a tablet (lazy parenting), letting them watch TV (lazy parenting), and countless other things. But if you express concern at children living in a dirty house you are a judgemental busybody.

Duty of care is the wrong phrase
Moral obligation could be argued