WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...

[KKCupCakes]

Take a look at this article about supporting families of Transgender people by the Gires.org.uk Website to see why that view is so utterly incorrect and harmful?
www.gires.org.uk/assets/supporting-families.pdf

I always assumed that if I say I'm a woman people will accept that. But from recent threads here, I'm no longer sure that's the case!

"Recent threads here" have discussed the issue of trans women, many of whom have a functioning penis and one of whom uses their penis to penetrate men, but has nonetheless been placed in a women-only prison.

I don't think the issue of women who may look like men is part of the same argument.

Someone linked this on another thread. ljmgreen.com/2015/11/01/germaine-greer-is-right-about-trans-women/

I would think any standard ID would be acceptable, Adjustable. A transgender person would have to have that certificate (GDR?) to have those changed anyway, so it's legal proof either way.

Yeah, I thought of that too. But although I can prove I'm legally a woman, I can't easily prove I'm biologically a woman, which seems to be the criterion for womanhood in some of the discussions on the current threads. No one can tell by looking at me that I don't have a penis, and some people seem to assume I have one. As do some trans women with a GRC, apparently.

I wouldn't have a problem being asked to prove I'm biologically female if I needed to go to a shelter. I just don't know how I would do it. I definitely don't have any way of proving my biological sex in women's toilets (which is where I've been challenged).

I don't think the issue of women who may look like men is part of the same argument.

I think it's become part of the same argument along the way, where people argue that someone with a penis or XY chromosomes is a man, and someone with a vulva or XX chromosomes is a woman, and that just because someone says they're a woman that doesn't make them a woman.

Most of the time we don't see other people's genitals or chromosomes, and we make assumptions about biological sex from other cues. So if someone thinks I look like a man and doesn't accept that I say I'm a woman, I guess there's not much I can do about it.

Thanks for that link howtorebuild. I don't think it's very useful to ban people from speaking - I think panel events with a variety of perspectives work better, even when I disagree wholeheartedly with some of the perspectives!

Adjustable I am not sure what you are asking? I would think an ID is more than enough.

wench

Could you carry a scanned image of your birth certificate on your phone? Or does a driver's licence show your title (mine says Dr so I don't know whether it also shows Mr, Ms, etc).

I know people who have to carry ID all the time - DD for one, who looks much younger than her 20 years. It's a pain, but easily resolvable.

I agree it's a grey area, though.

I think the problem is, due to people who could be considered not appropriate to be present in women-only spaces being issued ID stating they are women, the ID may not be trusted.

That article along with no other I've seen explains what it feels like to be a woman. How do trans people believe women feel and what makes them think they feel the same? I'm very interested to hear this. I don't identify as a woman I'm just a person. The only things that make me feel like a woman are either biological or are in hoe other people treat me.

Could you carry a scanned image of your birth certificate on your phone? Or does a driver's licence show your title (mine says Dr so I don't know whether it also shows Mr, Ms, etc).

That's a good idea. I wonder whether people would accept a scanned image as valid. My driving licence also says Dr, and doesn't identify my sex (I didn't realise until I just looked that the sex of the licence holder isn't on it.)

I think the problem is, due to people who could be considered not appropriate to be present in women-only spaces being issued ID stating they are women, the ID may not be trusted.

Yes, I think that's probably the main problem.

Have only read about 2/3 way downtown he thread as my baby has now woken up.....

But sinai - You said "I benefit from cis privilege if I date someone without the risk that I may be beaten or killed if they find out about my past"

Yes, by being born biologically female I will never run the risk of being beaten or killed because my partner found out I was genetically male.

And this is considered a privilege?! Fuck me.

Here I was thinking a privilege referred to things like not facing the threat or violence at all or not being subjected to harassment in the street/pub/bar/wherever, being paid the same as men when doing the same effing job, not being raped, beaten, sidelined, ignored, patronised, belittled, denied education, forced into marriage, etc etc etc

Yes. 'Cis women' are truely privilieged.

I get that trans people are subjected to a particular set of threats not faced by other 'groups' (for want of a better word) but that doesn't detract from the threats faced by many many groups of people. That one group doesn't suffer the same type of threat as another doesn't make it a privilige it just makes it fucking depressing that anyone faces threats regardless of how they identify themselves

Women face the threat of male violence for all kinds of reasons. The fact that one of those reasons isn't being male bodied isn't a facet of privilege. If a woman and a trans woman are both at risk of male violence, but stemming from possibly different motivations (being trans, being pregnant, being infertile etc) neither group is more or less privileged, both are at risk from the same threat.

itsbetterthanabox: "How do trans people believe women feel and what makes them think they feel the same?"

That's a really interesting question, but I think the answer is unknowable. I've never been aware of "feeling" like a woman, so when trans activists say that cis people are lucky that their inside matches their outside, I can't really understand what that means.

On the other hand, I do accept that for trans people, this is a real thing. I read Conundrum, the autobiography of Jan Morris, who was one of the first transwomen in the UK to undergo gender reassignment, and she makes it clear that even when she was a small boy, she "felt" like a girl. Morris has now lived as a woman for about 40 years, so to all intents and purposes is a woman. I would find it very hard to say to Morris that she has no right to call herself a woman or that she shouldn't be able to use female loos etc.

But I do share the qualms of other feminists, and about the way that some trans activists seem to think that being a woman is all about looking and dressing in a feminine way, when clearly femininity is a social construct and nothing to do with what it means to be a woman.

Hackmum I agree completely.
I have no problem with people living their lives however and I will always be respectful. I am against however people with intact male genitalia having access to females safe spaces.
If I can't explain what it is to be a woman then I can't see why a male can do this better. Live how you like but you can not have any idea what it is to be a woman.

Am I the only one who wonders why all the sudden everyone is talking about transgender issues? Do I live in a bubble?

Nope-me too sarah. It feels like almost every second thread is about trans rights in some way at the moment.

Good to know Purple, thanks.

I think it's because for a long time after people felt able to come out as trans Sarah, there was the attitude that if we want to be liberal, we have to accept that and have no qualms and move over and let them into our safe spaces - yet another example of women being expected to give up safety and security for the wants of men.

It's only now, as an increasing number of people reach "trans peak", that we're finally starting to see a backlash against the increasing use of trans, particularly MTF, to silence born women and to dictate a) what feeling like a woman is, and b) that birth and menstruation aren't women's issues and that it is transphobic to discuss them.

Good heavens.

Going right back to the OP and the title of this thread:

the only people I have ever heard calling transwomen "Chicks with Dicks" are a segment of the transwomen community itself.

Most thinking women prefer to be called woman: not "chicks" - that is a demeaning term which tends to be used by men who don't see women as fully human.

Once again, deflecting criticism of masculine prejudice and sexism onto women, and particularly feminists.

You know what - I don't even like the term "born woman".

I am a woman. Just because there are trans women doesn't stop me from being a woman. I honestly don't understand why we can't just use the terms "women" and "trans women". Those terms are different enough from each other not to cause anyone confusion, surely?

"don't understand why we can't just use the terms "women" and "trans women""

That would be because transwomen demand to be accepted as women, no different than any woman.

We can't be called women because then that means they are something else (well, transwomen, obviously). That is trans-exclusionary apparently, and makes us transphobic bigots.

Shockingly, they have quite a few women conned into supporting their dogma, as well.

I'll just carry on calling myself a "woman".

What percent of the population are trans-gendered?

Sarah, I believe the estimates are 0.5%

That would be because transwomen demand to be accepted as women, no different than any woman.

So is the term "trans woman" redundant?