to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

[RickRoll]

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OT but related; "Feds say Illinois school district broke law by banning transgender student from girls' locker room" www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/03/feds-say-illinois-school-district-broke-law-by-banning-trans-student-from-girls-locker-room/
In the US, the federal government has ruled that transgender students must have full locker room access - meaning that biological boys identifying as female may use the communal changing and shower facilities.

There is something not right with Obama, I can't quite put my finger on it. My intuition was spiked during the David Attenborough interview, and after reading how perplexed Attenborough was able the whole thing afterwards. The comments about girls and Michelle visiting the schools she did in the UK. Now this, something isn't right here! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/11700236/Barack-Obama-interviews-Sir-David-Attenborough.html

I don't get why a transgender student with a penis would want to be naked in a locker room with a load of girls. Why are people campaigning for this to happen?

Has anyone compiled the pertinent points that you could put in a letter to your MP if you wanted to lend some support to women who are places in a vulnerable position because of decisions like this? I would be interested in sending a letter to my mp, but don't want to drone on and on (which I sometimes do).

It has now been established that it is ok for males to go to female prisons. I guess it could be argued that it is the same principle for any male to do so, as the convicted violent offender is a functional adult male. I suppose there could be law suits if anyone is hurt because of this decision as the prison service have broken the rules which were followed previously and have endangered the females in this prison.

"I don't get why a transgender student with a penis would want to be naked in a locker room with a load of girls. Why are people campaigning for this to happen?"

Same reason that people have campaigned for Tara Hudson to move to a female prison? (Although I wonder how many people who supported the transfer realised that Tara still had a working penis aka "7-inch surprise"?)

It's the logical endpoint when it is commonly accepted that "if someone identifies as female, then she is female (and how dare anyone say otherwise".

I get why Tara would want to move prisons, I don't get why the transgender student would want to use the girls locker room. Surely any physical differences at that age would be mortifying?

It's a good question really, isn't it?

noblegirrafe for the same reason many other teenage males would want to hang out in the girls' locker room? Or validation? That case wasn't about safety, as they already had a private place to change.

(And the differences didn't seem to be an issue for that student either, as they were often photographed wearing a clingy skirt with their lunchbox clearly on display...)

I can only think of one reason, and its not a positive one.

On the letter - this is some of the things I think it might be useful to include. Anyone who feels like it copy and paste into a new message, then add/delete/expand on/swap the order of anything you want? And so on?

• basic principle of segregation of the sexes in prison and other intimate spaces, like hospital and changing rooms.

• there are already facilities for ensuring the safety of vulnerable prisoners exists - no need for solitary confinement, as vulnerable prison units exist in male prisons.

• the small size of the women's prison population in relation to mens' prison pop; 81% of women in for nonviolent crimes.

• vulnerability of most women prisoners as half have experienced domestic violence, more than half have been (physically, sexually or emotionally) abused as children and about a third grew up in care. Most will therefore have significant life experience of having to appease violent men in order to survive, including being forced to appear compliant with their own abuse - ie not physically or psychologically well-equipped to stand up to violent male in intimate circs.

• Hudson case, like several previous cases, is of tall, large person with male body, male physique, working genitals which they are clear about using sexually.

• Hudson's rights have been given precedence over the rights and privacy of all the other women in the prison system, who don't appear to have been considered at all.

• other cases of violent males with working penises being placed in women's prisons hasn't gone well for other women - this has to stop.

• not a case of trans rights v women's rights - entirely possible to keep female-identified male-bodied people safe without endangering vulnerable women.

Apparently the Transgender Rights Parliamentary Enquiry is currently going on. There's a report on the Guardian site about it. Ed Vaizey wants to see a crackdown on transphobic hate on social media (I wonder how far that will extend). Also, it said that people were asked to make written submissions. Anyone heard anything about this? I hadn't. I had a google and Sheila Jeffreys has made one about protecting women's spaces -it's really good, but I'm not sure it's going to get any attention.

The call for written submissions ended at the end of September - and given that they publish the submissions on the parliamentary website, I know a lot of women (including trans women) who were too afraid to submit to it. As was I. I think I might now, though - even though the deadline is long gone.

BarryMerry thanks for the Lierre Kieth tip. I've just been watching some videos of her talks (well, the same talk given in two different ways! But it sank in easier ) on YouTube, and yes, she explains liberalism vs radicalism very accessibly.

So, yes, everyone else struggling to marry their liberal identity with gender critical views - check out Lierre Keith's talk.

I also then flicked onto a talk by Rachel Ivy which is worth a watch/read as well - transcript here bendittilitbreaks.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/this-is-what-i-said-at-radfems-respond/

The parliamentary women and equalities committee said in a statement that it was aware that full equality for trans people still had not yet been achieved.

This is from a Guardian piece on the Transgender rights enquiry (from July 2015).

Firstly, imo they're confusing 'equal' with 'same'. It could also be argued that we're still some way from achieving full equality for women, full stop.

A few months ago I would've completely supported the right of anyone to be accepted and regarded as whoever they wanted to be. The Tara Hudson case, and the hellish amount of venom directed at 'terfs' by some of the trans community makes my hair stand on end.

Bubsandmoo, I did exactly the same youtubing as you! Made me want to go to a radfem meeting, but I don't know of any near me.

Did anyone notice this article?

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11962382/You-could-soon-be-allowed-legally-to-choose-your-own-gender-in-Britain.html

Apparently we can all just soon self-certify and that will be that.

Since there are apparently unlimited variations on gender how the hell are we as a country going to ensure segregation in multiple capacities? Are we going to build new hospitals, prisons, public toilets for all the categories?

Where do I tick to make sure I only need to share intimate spaces with people like me (XX, no penis, uterus, ovaries, biological female, socialised as girls/women) please?

Posting this on both threads (sorry).

Just came across this petition on Twitter to stop conflating LGB rights with trans rights. Please, please sign, whatever your sexuality!

Maybe I'm just being thick, but couldn't we just say - sure, be whatever gender you want. However, some spaces are segregated on the basis of sex. Those spaces are already exempt from sex equality legislation so all's well.

Or is that complicated because most people don't know the difference between sex and gender?

Empress - that petition is amazing and brave and long overdue, and I really want to sign it.

I am genuinely a bit scared - not to put my name to something I believe in, but that transactivists will attack the signatories. I am ashamed to admit this. My name is unique enough that I suspect I may be the only one with it and I am easily identifiable.

Do you think I can create an account with a less unique name?

There is a box you can tick on the change.org petition so it doesn't show your name publicly. It's the first time i've anonymously signed a petition and I didn't share it either because of the backlash. I suspect I won't be the only one not sharing it and as such it won't do all that well.

Maybe I'm just being thick, but couldn't we just say - sure, be whatever gender you want. However, some spaces are segregated on the basis of sex. Those spaces are already exempt from sex equality legislation so all's well.

I've thought the same thing - anyone with a legal background know the difference?

you can't even have a vulva cupcake without being called a terf

That petition desperately needs the sunlight of publicity.

I think so many people have jumped upon the pro-trans bandwagon because they feel they can associate with oppressed groups and be tolerant to the LGB part - far too few people care or will admit that 'just the women' are being thrown under the bus, and it's easy to pick sides. Feminism isn't universally popular.

Much, much harder for the 'tolerant' folks to see that they have to choose between conflicting interests in groups they also want to be seen to support.

I hope it gets media attention.