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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2015 12:51

Well that article explains the "severe" sentence - she was out on conditional discharge at the time.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 12:52

There's not much I can add to this thread, but I will mention a few things.

The Equalities Act 2010 states that an individual only needs to declare they are of the opposite gender, or that they intend to become the opposite gender, and the state must treat that person as that gender.

According to the Act, there is no need for an individual to undergo surgery to alter their biological physicality, take hormones, or perform femininity or masculinity. All they need to do is say they are the opposing gender.

You must remember that this Act is relatively new. We are just now seeing the implications and consequences of the Act as individuals bring cases to court. We simply do not know how the Act will work on the ground when it comes to transgender cases.

DH is an expert on the Equalities Act. In his words, in terms of transgender issues: "the sky is the limit."

Now ... I have been trying to determine whether or not there is any legislation that protects biological women and girls as biological women and girls from the implications of this legislation because, quite clearly, there are huge implications. If all a biological male needs to do, by law, is declare he is a woman for the state to have to treat him as a woman, then we have an extremely problematic situation that is open to abuse.

Indeed, we are already seeing this with in the evidence submission of the British Association of Gender Identity Experts to the transgender equality panel.

"The converse is the ever-increasing tide of [transgender] referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this.

These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard."

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.html

And here is where the Tara Hudson case, which has been publicised in the media, comes into play. If Tara Hudson is transferred to a female prison, then what prevents any incarcerated biological male that declares they are a woman, regardless of biological physicality or gender performance, from being transferred to a female prison?

My second point would be that the majority of women in Britain that have not suffered male physical violence really have no idea how strong the majority of biological adult males really are, regardless of the gender performance of that biological male. I am of the opinion that films and TV shows have deluded biological females into thinking that, even though there is a difference in physical strength, it is not as vast as it actually is.

My last and more controversial point is a question: does no-one else find it interesting that the recognition of transgender issues, tied as they are to synthetic hormone therapy, began to come to the fore at the same time as the bottom dropped out of the HRT market?

noeffingidea · 30/10/2015 12:53

Just read that new link.
Tara's mother said 'there is nothing male' about her daughter. Apart from her 7 inch fully functional penis, presumably.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 12:54

Sorry, the second section didn't bold.

the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard.

CultureSucksDownWords · 30/10/2015 13:02

The Bath Chronicle has reported this too:

www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Bath-transgender-woman-Tara-Hudson-loses-male/story-28084758-detail/story.html

In the article they say "She has undergone multiple gender reconstruction operations and has lived her whole adult life as a woman" - that's just not true, is it. This is a very illuminating lesson in never to believe anything reported in the press without some corroborating evidence.

RufusTheReindeer · 30/10/2015 13:12

Anyone know why trans women are a subset of women not men?

I've tried googling, came up with a Miranda Yardley blog post which was very good...but no answer to the question

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 13:14

I'd also like to point out that the removal of the penis is not the neutraliser that some previous posters believe.

There is a reason why cultures throughout time have utilised eunuchs: you get all the strength of an adult biological male but without the ability to procreate, rape or inseminate.

That's why eunuchs were used to guard women's quarters in the Ottoman Empire, for example.

HairyLittleCarrot · 30/10/2015 13:25

Werksallhours
can you explain your HRT reference please? I'm interested but I didn't understand.

BertrandRussell · 30/10/2015 13:27

Pharmaceutical companies seeking new markets?

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 13:54

Hairy

The pharmaceutical market for Hormone Replacement Therapy (ie. synthetic estrogen in this case) for menopausal women in developed countries used to be vast. Then came evidence that suggested a increased cancer risk with long term HRT use. Now doctors are very tentative about prescribing HRT to menopausal women, and the market has shrunk.

It seems to be a very strange coincidence to me that we now see the rise of a condition that requires if not, demands treatment with synthetic hormones, a condition where activists openly insist in some cases, particularly in teens, that the consumption of synthetic hormones is vital to avoid suicidal impulses.

It also seems peculiar that very few people connected in some way with this condition, be they medical professionals or activists, appear concerned about the health risks of not only taking synthetic hormones, but taking synthetic cross-hormones (i.e. a biological male taking synthetic estrogen or a biological female taking synthetic testosterone), particular when evidence suggests health risks when a biological female takes synthetic estrogen -- to the point where medical professionals are wary of prescribing them.

This lack of concern seems utterly bizarre. You would not find this kind of disregard elsewhere in other medical specialties. It is almost the very opposite of the underlying principles of the medical profession. Yet it is happening.

Then there are other odd little things: that one particular activist appears to work for a pharmaceutical company, that some pharmaceutical companies have sponsored awareness events ...

If I were Cassandra, I'd be telling you that in about twenty or thirty years, a scandal will break that rivals the antics of BigTobacco in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

Harriedharriet · 30/10/2015 14:03

Hells bells! Am learning so much here. Are men also being redefined by f to m transgender? i hear no talk of bio men or sis men etc.
I spent a lot of time in the company of trans women for work about 20 years ago. The experience left me fairly convinced that trans women dislike women intensely, that they would quite like to replace us somehow. Nothing I read now changes that perception!

CoteDAzur · 30/10/2015 14:04

"does no-one else find it interesting that the recognition of transgender issues, tied as they are to synthetic hormone therapy, began to come to the fore at the same time as the bottom dropped out of the HRT market?"

That is a very interesting point.

CerseiHeartsJaime4ever · 30/10/2015 14:11

That is really interesting Werksallhourz. I am interested too, to see how that pans out.

It's already been said but that some of the points on that metrosexual list of cis privilege are unreal.

18. Hollywood accurately depicts people of your gender in films and television, and does not solely make your identity the focus of a dramatic storyline, or the punchline for a joke.

Utterly untrue.

And 8. You can reasonably assume that your ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of your gender identity/expression.

Shows a complete lack of understanding and dismissal of what women have historically had to fight for.

HairyLittleCarrot · 30/10/2015 14:27

That's a really interesting perspective I hadn't previously considered. A lot of damage has been done by the very flawed HRT study, to the extent that some women who truly need HRT to ameliorate other health risks are being dissuaded or denied HRT to their detriment. It really frustrates me when I hear of women struggling to be prescribed HRT, or given insufficient dosage, or have their HRT discontinued prematurely.
I have idly wondered whether certain forms of HRT no longer available to women on the NHS (eg oestrogen implant) are still available to trans women. That would piss me off.
Also the R in HRT is for 'Replacement': the putting back of something once present biologically which has diminished.
as with 'Reconstructive' surgery. The medical priority should be to treat people according to what would be their physiological ideal. To restore to optimum health.

slugseatlettuce · 30/10/2015 14:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Werksallhourz · 30/10/2015 15:03

Harried

Are men also being redefined by f to m transgender?

The situation here is very different, as far as I can see. There was one very illuminating incident over a trans-man (FtM) that entered a "Mr Gay UK" type competition, I forget which country it was, and the response from the gay (i.e. biological homosexual male) community was not supportive, to put it lightly.

What appears to be the case with transgender issues and biological men is something that Germaine Greer pointed out decades ago: that society and culture treats everything that is "not-Man" as automatically "woman", that the label "woman" is the big tent that covers everything that falls outside of the rather narrow parameters of what defines "Man".

So I, Werkz, am a woman because I am "not-Man", rather than Mr Werkz (DH) being a man because he is not a woman, iyswim.

I've intentionally used capitalisation for Man to try and illustrate the point; not sure if it works though.

So, in practice, trans-women are perceived as "women", biological females are perceived as "women", and trans-men are also perceived as women, by virtue of the fact they are "not-Man". Everything I have comes across so far supports that this reading is the case in reality.

There's also a lot of concern over how the rise of transgenderism as a concept is affecting young, gay biological males. Put bluntly, transgenderism is persuading them that they are really women, rather than gay men.

noeffingidea · 30/10/2015 15:12

werks I've seen that concern expressed by lesbians, also. That 'butch' lesbians are being pressurised to transition.
I think there may be something to this tgeory, at least in certain groups. As an example , gay men are encouraged to transition in Iran. It would seem less shameful to be a transwoman than a gay man. I wonder if this happens in fundamental christian families in the Usa, as an alternative to 'pray away the gay'.

HermioneWeasley · 30/10/2015 15:24

That list of "cis privileges" has to have been written by a white, wealthy man! How deluded?!

howtorebuild · 30/10/2015 15:49

I didn't like that this has become a "send Tara to a Woman's prison" Petition/debate, when it could have been "create transgender prisons" petition/debate.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2015 15:53

What is the point if a transgender/third gender prison?

Anyone who self-declared their gender to be different to their sex would be in there so you would have gender-fluid, MtoF, FtoM, etc etc.

Surely better to segregate based on sex, and make sure all inmates are safe.

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 15:58

Have any trans men petitioned to be sent to a man's prison in a similar situation?

Or is the issue really that men's prisons are not seen as safe, rather than people's gender identities not being accepted?

howtorebuild · 30/10/2015 16:04

Have any trans men been sent to prison at all?

noeffingidea · 30/10/2015 16:05

I wonder how a person with a vagina would get on in a man's prison. Especially if they were smaller and less strong than virtually all the other prisoners.
Yeah, can't see that one happening.

saucony · 30/10/2015 16:06

For those who think Tara should be moved to a women's prison, what do you propose we do when someone who is non-binary is incarcerated? What do we do when Mr X (who is mid way through a 6 year sentence for serious sexual assault against multiple women) from stating that he is not transgender and thus needs to be moved to a female prison?

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 30/10/2015 16:06

yawn

her doctor says she is a woman, that's good enough for me . female prison