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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think if you have a penis, you do not belong in a woman's prison

990 replies

RickRoll · 29/10/2015 19:15

There is to be an appeal tomorrow, at Bristol Crown Court, regarding the decision to send violent criminal Tara Hudson, who works as a transsexual prostitute (still has a penis, as 80% of transsexuals do), to male prison. Tara wants to go to a female prison.

AIBU to think that if you have a penis, you should go to male prison?

People are arguing that Tara is at risk of sexual assault, but Tara is not unique in this - lots of (non transgender) men are vulnerable, and the prison service has a responsibility to protect them.

OP posts:
AdjustableWench · 29/10/2015 22:33

It would seem prudent to treat each intersex person as an individual and make no assumptions about which sex (or neither, or both I suppose) they would want to be identified as.

This might make sense for some intersex conditions (e.g. those that involve 'anomalous' genitalia at birth. It might not always make sense for other intersex conditions, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which the person has no penis (so would be identified as female by many posters on this thread) but is XY chromosomally. If we determine sex only by genitalia (vulva = woman), then we might end up saying that someone with AIS is a 'born woman', which might work out ok as long as the chromosonal picture isn't clarified.

On the other hand, we could treat each person as an individual and make no assumptions about which sex they want to be identified as - whether or not they have an intersex condition. This course of action is clearly problematic to many people on this thread (and elsewhere), however.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 29/10/2015 22:33

This woman was born into the wrong body, yes she was born with a penis but that is just a physical symptom of being transgender.

PurpleDaisies · 29/10/2015 22:37

So do you think other inmates should be able to refuse to share s cell with Tara if they were to be placed in a women's prison piper?

BlackbirdsInaPie · 29/10/2015 22:37

This woman was born into the wrong body

So how do you separate the idea of being born from the body? Do you think that there is a discernible male brain or female brain?

Can you explain a bit more precisely & clearly Piper? Because what you're saying doesn't make biological sense. The penis is connected to the testes which are important for the biological function of maleness, as well as the higher ratio of testosterone in a male body.

Cerseirys · 29/10/2015 22:39

I have seen numerous tweets that we aren't allowed to say vat on sanity products is a woman's issue. It is cis sexist.

I am starting to think that people who say these sorts of things exist only on Twitter! I honestly don't know anyone IRL ( and I know a few trans women) who would say that. Twitter seems to bring out the worst kind of SJW (social justice warrior) who says things on social media that they wouldn't say to people in person. Apparently even the dreadful Stavvers is a mouse IRL!

IShouldBeSoLurky · 29/10/2015 22:39

Piper what does "born into the wrong body" actually mean, if you think about it? Isn't it a bit like me saying that in my head I'm Kate Moss, and even though I was born in a different body from hers, I still should have access to all the privilege her physical reality confers on her? And that once I've had surgery to give me Kate Moss's face, for instance, I too should have a ££££ modelling career and date Johnny Depp?

Original poster
RickRoll · 29/10/2015 22:40

"This woman was born into the wrong body, yes she was born with a penis but that is just a physical symptom of being transgender."

Really?

It seems that Tara wants to have sex with men, particularly heterosexual men.

How does that make Tara born in the wrong body?

If I am a man who likes to wear nappies when I have sex, does that make me a baby?

OP posts:
PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 29/10/2015 22:41

I think they should be allowed to refuse.

To me it highlights a flaw in the prison service.

Perhaps Tara should just go to a prison in which she is on her own.

The pic I posted which I got online is Tara, can you imagine the abuse she is now getting in prison.

I really support transgender rights, this a person who needs protection.

BertrandRussell · 29/10/2015 22:41

I find it fascinating that nobody is prepared to address the cell sharing question. Which indicates that just maybe it's a more complex issue than some people would like to pretend.

trufflehunterthebadger · 29/10/2015 22:41

Very many of the inmates in a womens prison will have suffered domestic violence, child abuse, sexual abuse, coerced prostitution and other abuse at the hands of men. They are likely to be addicts or have mental health issues which led to the offending to start with. Vulnerable women at their rock bottom. These women have enough issues without having to try to navigate gender politics with a prisoner who may make them feel acutely vulnerable.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 29/10/2015 22:42

This thread just shows the ignorance of transgender

BertrandRussell · 29/10/2015 22:43

Why should they be allowed to refuse?

IShouldBeSoLurky · 29/10/2015 22:45

This thread just shows the ignorance of transgender

I don't think it does, piper - I think it shows that lots of people have thought about all this a lot harder than you have.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 29/10/2015 22:45

I am not an expert in the matter, but before life changing surgery the person has to have many hours counselling.

It's not easy to book an appointment with a plastic surgeon to say I want to look like a women.

AdjustableWench · 29/10/2015 22:46

I find it fascinating that nobody is prepared to address the cell sharing question. Which indicates that just maybe it's a more complex issue than some people would like to pretend.

See, I thought that had been dealt with upthread by the poster whose partner is a prison officer. Male prison, single cell in these circumstances. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of policy, which we don't get to decide on an internet forum.

Original poster
RickRoll · 29/10/2015 22:47

"It's not easy to book an appointment with a plastic surgeon to say I want to look like a women."

Who says? According to Tara's own posts, she initially ordered hormones off the internet. No counselling there.

Later she had breast implants.

Maybe there was counselling, but then again maybe not. If she flew off to Thailand to get them done cheaper, then I doubt they would do any meaningful counselling.

OP posts:
SettlinginNicely · 29/10/2015 22:47

I'll address it Bertrand, of course no woman should be made to share a cell with Tara.

IShouldBeSoLurky · 29/10/2015 22:48

Bertrand I suspect you and I are on the same side of this debate, but I (and I'm sure lots of other posters) just don't know enough about the prison service to know who has to share, and when they don't, and how the hell it all actually works.

PurpleDaisies · 29/10/2015 22:49

We're talking about a theoretical situation where a trans woman who had a penis is incarcerated in a women's prison not what is currently legal adjustable.

MrsJayy · 29/10/2015 22:49

Tara has a penis which tara uses tara is not a woman i really dont wish tara any harm but she is a violent man and to put her in a womens prison is not right.

RufusTheReindeer · 29/10/2015 22:49

Part of the difficulty i find with discussing this issue with people in FL is that a lot of people i talk to have no idea that you just have to self define as a woman to be one

That someone can have a fully functioning penis and use it to penetrate someone but they are a woman and needs to access womans areas

That someone can put a dress on, take no hormones and they are a woman and can access women only awards etc

That someone can live as a man for 50 years, transition and then all the benefits they had that helped them in their career are female benefits and all women could have done it if they wanted to

And the iran female football team has loads of male born people in it, but thats nothing to do with being stronger and faster until transition...its just they are women and all women could do it if they tried

And if i say any of this, if i try and explain that a lady with a 7 inch fully functioning penis is being put in a womans prison they look at me as if I'm deranged

And its sad because loads of trans women just get on with their lives and just want to be left alone and have happy lives...and i want that for them

StrawberrytallCake · 29/10/2015 22:50

It's not easy to book an appointment with a plastic surgeon to say I want to look like a women

LOOK like......not be.

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 29/10/2015 22:50

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2496875-DS-is-transgender-or-is-he

No wonder this mum posted.

BertrandRussell · 29/10/2015 22:50

"This thread just shows the ignorance of transgender"

Of course it bloody does! Most people have never met a transgender person. I would put money on a significant number of the most vociferous people on both sides haven't. And one of the most unhelpful type of post is the "I'm shocked at everyone's ignorance" with unspoken post script "how can people not be as knowledgable and right thinking as I am?"

MorrisZapp · 29/10/2015 22:52

YANBU

Male prison is the only sensible option.