5 year old - heaven vs hospital (sensitive)

LadyShirazz · 2015-10-29T15:08:33+00:00

Just wondered what MNers were making of this, very sad, story. [[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/juliana-snow-heaven-hospital_563049a0e4b0c66bae5a2989]] Summary: Very ill 5 year old child, who will die of her condition sooner or later, is given the choice between further, painful hospital treatment to prolong life or "heaven" by her Christian parents. I'm an atheist but torn on this one.

HeartShapedBox · 29/10/2015 15:12

Not read the link yet but if the kid's only five, "heaven" is probably the best way to put it, I don't know how else you could word it.

Original poster

LadyShirazz · 29/10/2015 15:16

I guess the discomfort comes from the fact that the parents are allowing her make the decision between "heaven and hospital", rather than "hospital or death".

On the other hand, if no amount of hospital treatment is going to save her long term, it would seem very cruel to inform a child that young of the "true" choice she were facing.

OP posts:

CocoChanel22 · 29/10/2015 15:16

My DD is almost 5, she wouldn't be able to make a decision like that, she wouldn't understand God/heaven/death. I find it really hard to believe a child of that age can make sure a decision.

KittyandSqueal · 29/10/2015 15:17

I wouldn't like to say how I'd react or what I'd do. I cannot imagine. My tfmr was partly to avoid having to make a similar decision for my dd if she'd been born alive.

I guess at some point we all should have a say over what happens to us, if we live or die, especially under these circumstances. 5yo is a horrible age to make that decision but I also understand the parents feeling they can't make that decision for her.

I cannot imagine the pain they all must be suffering

cantucci01 · 29/10/2015 15:19

i'd go with heaven. My dd is 5 and their ability to comprehend is so limited, this is a sh1tty, awful situation and I'd have to live with the 'lie' because if you are an atheist and this is really it, the only harm is your discomfort at not being honest. I don't see what good 'truth' telling would do here. How utterly awful for this poor little girl.

Sirzy · 29/10/2015 15:19

Sounds to be like they are trying to stop her being scared of death and let her know that it is ok for her to be tired of fighting to live. Very brave IMO

Panickingalot · 29/10/2015 15:19

She is being asked to chose between something that is true/tangible/real (hospital) and something that is unproven/imagination/a belief (heaven). The child should know the choice is hospital or death.

What a terribly sad sad situation.

SparklyLeprechaun · 29/10/2015 15:22

What a terrible, terrible choice to make. I don't think the little girl can make an informed choice, not if she is told the choice is between pain and being able to run and play in heaven. But I can't bring myself to think badly of her parents for misleading her, if the thought of heaven makes them and the little girl easier, then so be it.

May09Bump · 29/10/2015 15:22

Heartbreaking - if it gives them comfort by thinking heaven exists, who cares.
I hope they mean at home with medical assistance - because they might be able to provide pain management and support the parents emotionally.

I'm not sure it's fair to give the child the decision, as she is only five. But it is reasonable to hear the child's wishes and consider the DR's prognosis - I would personally let her be at home with everything she loves.

It is so very sad for her parents and her young brother - I wish them strength to face what is to come.

manicinsomniac · 29/10/2015 15:22

I think it's fine but I'm a Christian. Even if I was an atheist though, I think I'd want to say heaven to a 5 year old as oppose to death.

If there's a chance she could recover I think it's wrong. Otherwise - let them deal with an impossibly tragic situation in the best way for them.

I knew a 5 year old who died of heart disease many years ago. Her mum asked her to pray to Jesus to heal her. The little girl told her mum 'no Mummy, Jesus said I can go with him now.' She seemed to understand what was happening to her. I'm not really sure what 5 year olds can comprehend but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the little girl in the article making a choice she does understand on some level.

sweetheart · 29/10/2015 15:22

This is the bit that doesn't sit right with me.....

Moon says she’s explained to her daughter that heaven is a place where "she will be able to walk, jump and play. She will not need machines to help her breathe, and she will be able to eat real food

How can she tell her daughter this - she doesn't know if it's true. She is giving her daughter a rose tinted version of death over the awfulness she would endure at hospital - what young child isn't going to choose that!

cantucci01 · 29/10/2015 15:24

but the thing is death is the fast approaching outcome here, whether it's very soon or a bit sooner, so truth telling to a child incapable of resolving the sadness is ultimately more cruel for the child. "I think a 4-year-old might be capable of deciding what music to hear or what picture book they might want to read. But I think there's zero chance a 4-year-old can understand the concept of death. That kind of thinking doesn't really develop until around age 9 or 10." So the idea of informed consent is not a reality here.

Ricardian · 29/10/2015 15:38

They can't win, can they? The other behaviour of religious parents in this situation is desperate, painful zero-chance medical procedures, with court cases and shit to prevent doctors from acting in the child's best interests. Here they are, explaining in the terms they understand, the choice the child faces, and they're still pilloried.

I'm as atheist as it gets. When you're dead, you're dead. If belief in an afterlife makes the process of dying easier and less terrifying, good luck to you. Telling lies to dying children is bad when it involves a miracle. It's fine when it's fairy stories to ease the passage.

There's a time for "They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more." And that time is not the final months of a terminally ill five year old.

ScribblerOnTheRoof · 29/10/2015 15:53

How can she tell her daughter this - she doesn't know if it's true. She is giving her daughter a rose tinted version of death over the awfulness she would endure at hospital - what young child isn't going to choose that

Because once she is dead, she is dead - there is just ...nothing (I assume). Her life at present has no future or hope. To let her die would mean no more suffering.

ScribblerOnTheRoof · 29/10/2015 15:54

To tell her she is going to DIE rather than just say she is goign to heaven, will just inject fear into her alreadyuncertain life

Booboostwo · 29/10/2015 15:59

The decision is not hospital or heaven, it's death now or death later. I have no problem with a 5 year old having an input on when enough is enough and no problem with her family telling her about heaven (I am an atheist). Death now is a perfectly rational choice regardless of one's views about the afterlife.

I worked for years in medical ethics and it's not at all unusual for young children to be involved in such decisions, in fact we had a documentary of a six year old's decision to decline further chemo with the support of his family and medical team.

whois · 29/10/2015 15:59

I don't think the little girl can make an informed choice, not if she is told the choice is between pain and being able to run and play in heaven. But I can't bring myself to think badly of her parents for misleading her, if the thought of heaven makes them and the little girl easier, then so be it.

+1

Pancakeflipper · 29/10/2015 16:06

As her daughter is going to die at some point soon I think it's a reassuring unscary thing to talk about heaven to her 5yr old as they believe in God.

Rather than hospital which frightens her daughter or dead/end nothingness. That must be worse for a child whose family believes in God to hear.

Sounds like it's the end stages for her daughter's life. The hardest call for a parent to make is deciding no more treatment that only prolongs and doesn't cure.

AlanPacino · 29/10/2015 16:15

I don't think I would even tell the child the choice. I would do that for them and concentrate on making them as happy as can be and supporting them. My children know i don't believe in heaven but in that scenario if they said they believed I would support that. If they asked me what would happen I would say I was absolutely certain she had nothing to worry about, sounds daft I know. But the child comes first.

Qwebec · 29/10/2015 16:18

I know a few people who worked with dying children. From what they told me the children do have a certain understanding of dying because they are living it. The children I've heard of lived as long as they could but at a certain point the felt it that it was over. Some battled longuer for the parents, but it was rather clear when it was time to let go.

I might not agree with how the mother presented it, but she did her best. I have more of an issue with dissecting what she said, I can't imagine being in her position and having this conversation. I also think that the child will choose to go when she feels ready and am impressed that the mother is able to let the child decide for herself.

AnUtterIdiot · 29/10/2015 16:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gileswithachainsaw · 29/10/2015 16:34

whether or not you believe Inn heaven what she is living now use come pretty close to hell.

if this makes it easier for her to choose to end her suffering akd the parebts believe she's in a better place then I'm this instance where's the harm.

either way she is just choosing fir the pain to end and we wouldn't put a dog through this so I think her parents are incredibly brave in trying to make it easier for her.

I'd lie like that if I had to. I'd not want my child to choose pain and prolonging of suffering because I told her there was nothing.

for them all

Pico2 · 29/10/2015 16:41

I agree with Booboo, framing it as 'hospital or death' is incorrect. It's 'hospital and death in a short while or death'. And we are seeing a simplistic article which reflects the parents' faith. But it is very likely that experts, not just her consultant but experts in paediatric palliative care, have been part of the discussion and have supported the conversation.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 29/10/2015 16:46

I am an athiest.

I held my daughter as she died and talked to her about playing on the clouds and having fun in heaven.

What else was I supposed to do? It's fucking devestatingly hard.

Helenluvsrob · 29/10/2015 16:47

Terribly sad situation and I think the parents are handling it as well as they can with a 5yr old. Her death, and soon, is inevitable. Another painful upsetting admission gaining weeks - if which a large chunk would be spent in pain / psychological distress is that reall in her best interest?

The family have a faith in life after death. It's how she's been brought up. Why should she not have the comfort of that? It's the old paradox- heaven may or may not exist, but, if you believe and are wrong, and there is nothing, you have lost nothing !