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Original poster

5 year old - heaven vs hospital (sensitive)

135 replies

LadyShirazz · 29/10/2015 15:08

Just wondered what MNers were making of this, very sad, story.

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/juliana-snow-heaven-hospital_563049a0e4b0c66bae5a2989

Summary: Very ill 5 year old child, who will die of her condition sooner or later, is given the choice between further, painful hospital treatment to prolong life or "heaven" by her Christian parents.

I'm an atheist but torn on this one.

OP posts:
Goldmandra · 29/10/2015 17:00

The choice this child is making really comes down to whether having treatment is tolerable enough for her to accept it in order to have more time with her family. She has decided that it is not. I imaging that is the view of her family too. Taking her feelings into account isn't wrong. Nor is giving her the casting vote. She's the only one who really knows what the treatment feels like to her.

I don't think many five year olds would choose heaven without family unless there was something pretty awful about staying, which there is for this little girl.

naitimum · 29/10/2015 17:05

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I can't even comprehend how hard that must have been for you.

dotdotdotmustdash · 29/10/2015 17:17

The Mum is a Neurologist, she will have plenty of experience of working with dying people and their belief systems and sensitivities. I'm sure she's giving her daughter the perfect information for her to make the best decision she can at her age.

I'm an athiest, but have no issue whatsoever with the approach this family are taking. This is not the time for truth or principles.

sugar21 · 29/10/2015 17:19

I lost my dd 4 years ago, she died from meningitis. Her illness was short but she was 17 months old and mostly sleeping. She just said Mummy when she was awake. I like to think she is in heaven playing with the other dc who were taken too soon. I have to have that to cling too
5 years old is too young to make such a decision.

hackmum · 29/10/2015 18:33

I don't suppose any of us would want to be in this position or really know what we would do if we were. So I'm not in a mood for judging. The problem for me is that the parents have decided to allow the child to decide (which is a hell of a burden for a five year old) but have weighted the dice so that she chooses death. I suppose it makes them feel better - I can quite see why they don't want to make the decision themselves. And I can quite see why they don't want to say: "You either carry on treatment, or you cease to exist altogether." The child is five years old, after all.

I don't think it's the approach I would choose but I've never been in their shoes.

Booboostwo · 29/10/2015 19:12

Just to clarify, no one would let a 5yo make this decision on their own. When it comes to this kind of quality of life at the end of life issues there is no clear objective answer to what should be done. If the medical team are satisfied that it is a decision between death now and death a short while later they leave the burden of the choice to the family who often take the views of the child into account.

If a 5yo refused to go to hospital for what was expected to be a successful treatment their wishes would be overridden as treatment is clearly in their best interests.

To give you another example, children who need a heart and lungs transplant usually have to wait so long for a donor that their conditions deteriorate a lot. Medically in some cases when a donor appears it is not clear that the transplant will be a success so often the input of the children is sought along that of the family to see which risk they find more acceptable; risk the operation withe a chance the child may die in theatre or enjoy what time they have left in relative comfort at home.

Elsa and sugar I am so sorry for your losses, words fail.

GingerIvy · 29/10/2015 19:50

They're not making her "choose death." She's going to die either way, it's just that one way entails lots of possibly painful and intrusive medical procedures and the other way doesn't. I think she should have the right, even at that age, to say "no, I don't want to go to the hospital." I think it's incredibly brave of her parents to give her that choice. I would think that's a very tough thing to do. Most parents would cling to the treatment hoping for a miracle. These parents know that the miracle is not coming, so don't want to put her through any more suffering if they can avoid it.

I think the "going to heaven" is so much more kind than making the inevitable death scary by being brutally honest with a 5yo who is too young for that. Remember, this is a child that has been ill for a long time. Personally, I view this more as "giving their daughter permission to stop fighting and give in so she can rest" than "giving her the choice between treatment and death."

BMW6 · 29/10/2015 20:43

This reply has been deleted

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cestlavielife · 29/10/2015 20:44

They are saying the next time you get sick we will let you die at home. Let s hope that still means giving any medication needed for a good death.
Doesn't matter if they call it heaven or anything.

MrsBojingles · 29/10/2015 21:00

FFS their daughter is dying and your dissecting what comfort they are trying give their child? Get a grip.

MrsBojingles · 29/10/2015 21:01

*you are

Heathcliff27 · 29/10/2015 21:03

This is heartbreaking. I know for sure that if I was in this position I would say anything I could to dispel any fear my child had, whether it be heaven, fairies, angels, rainbows. My personal beliefs aside.

saucony · 29/10/2015 21:07

Casting judgment on how a parent discusses the death of their 5 year old with her is pretty low.

Penfold007 · 29/10/2015 21:08

I think her parents are being incredibly brave, they are listening to what their daughter wants. They have a faith and so talk about hospital or heaven rather than hospital or death. What language are they supposed to use? This little girl has a complex and terminal medical condition, if she has had enough of living then so be it. I hope I could be as selfless as these parents.

Bettercallsaul1 · 29/10/2015 21:09

What a heartbreaking thread. The worst nightmare.

NorthernLurker · 29/10/2015 21:21

Elsa and Sugar - I'm very sorry to read of your losses.

OP - I think the parents are acting in love and in line with their beliefs. I am a Christian too and when we talk about heaven we are not talking about a fairy story. We are talking about the cornerstone of our faith. The parents have clearly expressed to their daughter what this will be like. The transcript includes ' it probably means that you will go to heaven by yourself, and Mommy will join you later' - words I can barely type without crying and yet they've had that discussion. I can't imagine how painful that is but I reckon its probably worse to watch your child be held down and undergo treatment necessary to prolong not save her life. There are worse things than being dead.

I wish this child and these parents much peaceful time together.

AFewGoodWomen · 29/10/2015 21:23

Terrible terrible Terrible situation.
Atheist here but who the hells knows what claptrap I would spout to staunch my own pain and, more importantly, that of my child in this situation?
Flowers Flowers Flowers to the parents in this case and to the parents up thread who have lost their children.
RIP your children.

CocktailQueen · 29/10/2015 21:42

I have read the mother's blog and I think she's dealing with it as well as possible - she's so brave and loving.

I can totally understand why she has offered her dd the choice - the poor girl, what is her quality of life like?

And I hope their faith helps them now and in the future. I'm sure it will.

Brioche201 · 30/10/2015 15:47

I would certainly take the child's views into account in am atter like this.Absolutely.

MrsTerryPratchett · 30/10/2015 16:16

I'm an atheist and I think I would want to do anything to make the suffering better for DD, including lying through my teeth. Poor parents, poor child. I hope the thought of heaven makes this awful situation a little more bearable for them.

SplatterMustard · 30/10/2015 16:33

Hmm, it's a terrible situation but there is no way that I'd be letting a child choose between heaven or hospital. We're Catholics and are bringing up the children with faith but it's just plain wrong IMO.

AuntieStella · 30/10/2015 16:43

I think, in the abstract, that a 5 year old is rather too young for active decision making over terminal care.

But yes, I'd use every comforting strategy in the book, and if that means a religious family talking about heaven, then why not?

No way am I going to criticise the people who are actually going through this right now for doing what they think is the best thing, for them, today. I wish them every strength, and as peaceful a time as possible.

Goldmandra · 30/10/2015 16:52

there is no way that I'd be letting a child choose between heaven or hospital

Would you force a five year old to undergo distressing treatment against her express wishes simply in order to unnaturally extend her life by a few days or weeks?

How would you explain this to the child? I can't imagine this being possible without the child feeling disenfranchised, let down, frustrated and just plain scared. How are those things better? How is OK to make a child feel like this for the past few weeks of their short life?

Surely, even at five years old, it is perfectly appropriate to allow a child the right to refuse further treatment, especially if that treatment is distressing and something that occupies their mind when they are not even in hospital.

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/10/2015 16:57

What would you do then splutter

what good is there in dragging it out even further or allowing drs to torture her more?

if they found a cure tomorrow ot would still probably be too late fir this poor little girl.
my guess is its just their way of them making sure she knows she doesn't have to hang on for them and it's ok to go now.

she's going to die regardless. isn't it going to be better if she's home with her family in her own bed? (hopefully with pain relief obviously)

I just can't see what good would come of taking her back when she's had enough and there's no hope

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/10/2015 16:58

And why make her last memories those of being forced to undergo more painful procedures despite it being against her will and ultimately pointless.