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Original poster

5 year old - heaven vs hospital (sensitive)

135 replies

LadyShirazz · 29/10/2015 15:08

Just wondered what MNers were making of this, very sad, story.

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/juliana-snow-heaven-hospital_563049a0e4b0c66bae5a2989

Summary: Very ill 5 year old child, who will die of her condition sooner or later, is given the choice between further, painful hospital treatment to prolong life or "heaven" by her Christian parents.

I'm an atheist but torn on this one.

OP posts:
Sirzy · 30/10/2015 17:04

Really it isn't so much as giving them a choice as saying in as nice a way as they can find that the child can understand that is ok to be tired, it's ok to have had enough of living.

SplatterMustard · 30/10/2015 17:12

I wouldn't tell the child that heaven was a place where she could play, it's not giving the child a fair representation of her choices. A place where you can go and play or go to hospital? No child would choose the hospital.
I wouldn't want to prolong her suffering, of course not. I'd be honest and say that I don't know what heaven is like.

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/10/2015 17:17

But what good what that do?

Sirzy · 30/10/2015 17:23

But when that choice is stay with parents and people who love you in hospital or go to somewhere with no pain BUT without your parents it isn't such an easy decision and only a child who had reach their limit would choose to latter.

SecretNutellaFix · 30/10/2015 17:23

I think it's a brave and fully considered decision on the part of her parents to discuss it with her. I think her choosing where to die is a perfectly appropriate decision for a 5 year old to make.

SplatterMustard · 30/10/2015 17:27

I think letting the child have a say is appropriate, it's the way they described heaven to her. Say heaven is real, say the girl arrives in heaven and it's not like it was described, how is she going to feel if one of the last things her parents told her was a lie.

lexigrey · 30/10/2015 17:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/10/2015 17:35

yy lexi

it's about how she feels about dying in general. it's happening no matter what and regardless of the decision this on one of those times where honesty does more harm than good and leaving her scared fir a week or a month is just cruel.

tell her she's going to Disney land. tell her anything. just as long as she's no more scared than she has to be

Pico2 · 30/10/2015 17:35

These people genuinely believe in heaven. My understanding of heaven, for those who believe, is that it is a completely good place. They aren't describing it to her with the intention to mislead, just as the best place that she could imagine. It is bizarre to imagine that a proportion of those people getting to heaven are there, disappointed, and grouching about it not being like it was described.

BertrandRussell · 30/10/2015 17:39

I'm an atheist.

I would lie like a trooper so that my 5 year old- or anyone else's- died without fear- and was not kept artificially and painfully alive.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 30/10/2015 17:41

I think letting the child have a say is appropriate, it's the way they described heaven to her. Say heaven is real, say the girl arrives in heaven and it's not like it was described, how is she going to feel if one of the last things her parents told her was a lie.

Oh do fuck off won't you. The last things I said to my daughter were lies.

I held her as they took the ventilator out and told her she would be playing with the angels, that my son, her brother would be there to greet her, that she would be jumping from cloud to cloud and running free in a way she couldn't on earth.

Are you seriously judging parents who are losing their daughter for telling her something to comfort her, and do you really think their daughter will be judging them for lying?

Wolpertinger · 30/10/2015 17:41

I work in palliative care - it's pretty impossible to explain death to a 5 year old without using concepts like heaven as they don't have the developmental understanding of an adult. Every atheist I have met in this sad situation goes for heaven or 'we will be stars in the sky' or similar because there simply isn't another way to do it that is age appropriate. You have to put the child's needs first, not yours.

I think this girl's parents are amazing. They obviously want her to live as long as possible but don't want her to suffer and have recognized that their wish for her to live could actually cause her suffering by putting her through more and more painful treatment.

They are allowing her a space in which to say she is tired and not enjoying life in terms she understands. They also genuinely believe in heaven - there is no misleading here at all.

They are truly amazing parents.

hairbrushbedhair · 30/10/2015 17:42

I would go with heaven as a non Christian and someone who thinks reincarnation is most likely after death. I think offering a child an imaginary paradise is a comfort Id far rather offer than the plain unknown. I'd much rather my child slipped away expecting something good (even if it didn't materialise) in their last moments. It's not like they'll ever be able to feel betrayed by me lying about it anyhow if it's untrue.

Wolpertinger · 30/10/2015 17:43

Elsa I cross posted with you - I also think you were and are amazing to your little girl. A true parent puts the needs of their child first and anyone telling you anything different can fuck off.

SplatterMustard · 30/10/2015 17:44

Elsa I'm sorry. I was wrong. Flowers

shazzarooney99 · 30/10/2015 17:46

Having had a brother that died of severe cerebal palsy i think its cruel to keep a child like that alive, espcially when theres no cure, my brother was brought back from the brink of death several times, however he had no quality of life.

Even when he was actually dying the doctors asked my mother and father to turn off life support and they were split, sadly my brother would have died anyway, hes was only given a life expectancy of 2 and he lived to 14, not being able to do anything, food to be liquidised, nappies ect, he had no life as such.

msrisotto · 30/10/2015 17:48

I'm an atheist too.

The little girl can't make an informed decision IMO. Not because of the reliability of the information though, simply because of her age. In this circumstance, her parents should provide her all the reassurance they can give. Whatever it is. Poor little thing.

cailindana · 30/10/2015 17:50

What I'm wondering is why they gave her this 'choice' at all? Why give her the knowledge that if she feels ill her time is up? Why not just say 'no more hospital darling, you're staying at home, relax'? It strikes me that they asked her so that they could say the incredibly difficult choice was her choice. Really it isn't a choice at all. She will die. What she's 'choosing' is to alleviate some of her parents' guilt for doing the right thing and stepping back when the end comes.
They are in a horrific situation and I feel for them. But I think the issue is not around the choice itself (which as I said isn't really a choice) but around the psychological function the 'choice' is serving for the parents.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 30/10/2015 17:53

that's made me burst into tears - why is life so fucking shit

sugar21 · 30/10/2015 17:56

I think NOBODY should bang on about this situation. The child is 5 ffs
Put yourself in the position of being in a hospital knowing your child will not live.
If you haven't been in that position, you do not know what you'll say.
Watching your child die is the worst thing that can happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/10/2015 17:57

Maybe they just wanted to let her feel for once she did have a choice in something.

up until now the drs and the parents decided. maybe they talked to someone or the drs said something or the last visit was particularly traumatic and they decided enough was enough.

maybe they feared she was "hanging on" for them.

or maybe this is just the way that their faith would accept. that this is the way around any clause that prevents people from refusing treatment or choosing death over life?

lexigrey · 30/10/2015 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gileswithachainsaw · 30/10/2015 17:58

Not sure it matters why tbh

she's dying and they don't want her to feel scared. who cares what they said and why. they love their child and are making the toughest decision the have ever faced.

expatinscotland · 30/10/2015 18:01

I lied to my daughter, too, Elsa. She was 9. I lied to myself, too, because being faced with the fact of her imminent death was a serious threat to my sanity, which I needed to keep for her. In fact, I lie to myself now. All the time. I'm good at it. Most bereaved parents could win an Oscar any day.

There's a lot 'If it were me, I would . . . ' but it isn't you. And until it is, you have no idea and I'm very glad that is so because I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

Youarentkiddingme · 30/10/2015 18:02

I guess it's the most effective way they can ask a child of just 5yo if they want to continue with hospital treatment whilst getting them to understand without it they will die.

I'm not sure children as young as 5 truely understand the concept of death so giving that option may still not lead to a fully informed choice.

The parents are offering their child the chance to end invasive treatment - very rough and difficult decision, I think we should be respecting the parents for considering their DDs wishes - not slamming their choice of words.