5 year old - heaven vs hospital (sensitive)

[LadyShirazz]

Just wondered what MNers were making of this, very sad, story.

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/juliana-snow-heaven-hospital_563049a0e4b0c66bae5a2989

Summary: Very ill 5 year old child, who will die of her condition sooner or later, is given the choice between further, painful hospital treatment to prolong life or "heaven" by her Christian parents.

I'm an atheist but torn on this one.

for you Elsa .

How brutal. I read the link and went straight in to check on the dds.
I think the parents did the right thing in every sense and o too am an atheist.

Just as an aside - many Christians believe that when they are resurrected to new life it will be all at once,

Italian I'm an atheist and didn't know this but I know someone who will find that incredibly comforting so thank you for sharing it.

I don't think anyone who hasn't been in such a horrible position can say what they would do but I'm pretty sure that I would say and do anything I could that would bring comfort. Also to these parents it isn't a 'lie' it's what they believe so it's the truth.

I see no problem in telling a small child that she will be free of pain in heaven if it helps to ease her fears. None at all.

After all, if there is a heaven, then chances are she will be free of pain - and if there isn't a heaven, but nothing, then she's not going to know anyway, is she because she'll be dead.

So it's not like it's giving her a false promise that she's going to be able to know was false - it's just helping to alleviate her fears in this life, however much of it she has left to her.

I'd far rather be given a comforting story than told "you die and that's it" - how fucking cruel. :(

Part of this discussion reminds me of when my pet rabbit died when I was 9. I was really sad and asked my mother if the rabbit would be in heaven. My mother's response was "there is no heaven for rabbits".

To this day, I felt hurt of he cruel answer even when I'm pretty much a sceptic these days.

So no, I don't think the parents are in the wrong of calling death "heaven". Heaven may not exist as a rosy lovely place full of winged individuals, but if we see heaven as peace (and there is peace in not having to put up with months of very painful and uncomfortable procedures) the parents are not lying, and believe me, if there is no heaven, the kid won't be any wiser so if believing there is one helps the family through this, so be it.

Beaufort, I don't think I said anything unfeeling or actually really gave an opinion in my OP.

I would have absolutely no compunctions in allowing a 5YO the comfort of a better place to go to. I guess where my discomfort came from was the presenting heaven as this fantastic place where the child can run or play etc, rather than the horrible reality of further hospital treatment.

But in that situation, where death is inevitable, there don't seem to be any alternatives.

I'm sorry for people's losses on this thread.

WaggleBee re -"Just as an aside - many Christians believe that when they are resurrected to new life it will be all at once"....

"Italian I'm an atheist and didn't know this but I know someone who will find that incredibly comforting so thank you for sharing it."

Thank you.

It's not very clear what exactly will happen in terms of resurrection but it sounds like it will all happen pretty much at once and those who have died will be raised (talked about as a kind of altogether not one at a time kind of things) and then joined by those still alive when the Lord returns.

I know lots of people have said they are atheists and so will not believe this but the family of the child are Christians so they will believe it and maybe their faith has helped them cope with this appalling situation.

Waddlebee If your friend wants to know where the resurrection is spoken of in the Bible (one place - there may be many others, I am, not a biblical shoeler!) is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 - The New International Version puts it as (abbreviated by me to make it easier to read, you can read the full version on line or in the Bible!)

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death.... For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him..... we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

TheTigerIsOut I am sorry about your pet when you were 9, my dd was devastated by the loss of a pet. Children really do often connect with them (so do some adults!)

The Bible talks of the wolf living with the lamb, the leopard lying down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together (in Isaiah 11:6) I know these are images that can convey peace, predator and prey together at peace, but I do also take it to mean there will be animals in heaven.

So of course I can't vouch for it being so but we told our dd her beloved hamster would go to heaven and the cat too. And I do think animals have just as much of a 'personality' (or animality!) as people so who knows. I would like to think so.

The only thing I see wrong with this is the dramatisation of a 5 year old "making the decision" in a newspaper.

The parents have obviously made the decision themselves due to her current health issues and are cleverly comforting their daughter with the idea of her having a choice and going to heaven. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Believing in heaven is having hope. Honestly who can blame anyone for wanting hope when their child is dying.

No one has a clue what happens when we die. We may well have beliefs but any certainty is impossible. Certainly there are people have had near death experiences of both heaven and hell or outer body experiences.

I find it really, really awful that this is even being discussed. The very idea of even talking about whether they are 'right or wrong' is quite sick.

I despise religion, the misery it causes & the fact that so much of the world remains in thrall to it in 2015.

In this scenario:

(1) of course it's more than OK to tell the child anything at all, no matter how untrue or otherwise ridiculous that makes the dire situation easier to understand and deal with; but

(2) I'm not entirely sure that, with or without sugar coating the choices, the child should be making the choice here. she's just too young to comprehend the decision.

"(2) I'm not entirely sure that, with or without sugar coating the choices, the child should be making the choice here. she's just too young to comprehend the decision."

I expect that the parents and the doctors are making 99% of the decisions. This little girl will never have cure and its managing her pallative care. The child's feelings are significant and I think its reasonable to take them into account. It may well be a case of death now or death in a few weeks time.

I doubt that this family's faith has ever hurt anyone. If a belief in an afterlife gives them comfort at this difficult time then don't belittle them. They may well be right, that there little girl will be able to run and play in heaven. There is absolutely no way of knowing for sure what happens after death.

It's fairly standard to say that children should be involved in decisions about their life, at a level suitable for their age and understanding, isn't it? The Children's Act has something along those lines. It doesn't mean giving a 5-yr-old a complete say with no support, but that their views need to be heard and taken seriously, and that they are given age appropriate information about what is happening and likely to happen.

DD (aged 8) will be having a minor operation soon, and while I made the final decision on the doctor's advice, I certainly talked with DD about why it was a good idea, the (should be) temporary discomfort and (should be) long term benefits - and took her questions and reservations seriously. Luckily we've had plenty of time to think about it and discuss it, and DD knows a couple of other children who have had a similar procedure, and is half nervous/half looking forward to being spoilt a little .

There are times when a parent needs to just step in, but in most cases surely a joint decision is better all round?

I sincerely hope that the parents take comfort from their belief that their dd will go to heaven when she dies. Not in the same league at all, but when my Dad died (in his 40's and suddenly), my Mum found immense comfort and support in and from her faith and her belief that he was now in a better place. It isn't something I believe myself however if a dying person, regardless of age, finds that the concept of heaven makes the process of dying less frightening, then who am I to tell them otherwise? Any slight comfort that can be gained in such a heartbreaking situation has to be worth "lying" about, surely?

I've not read the article but aged 5 DD would definitely have chosen hospital, she was definitely certain that a) heaven didn't exist and b) that it wouldn't be heaven if her family wasn't there.

How do I know what I would do I can't possibly know. I doubt my beliefs being an atheist would matter more than trying to comfort a dying child surely wanting them to not feel fear would be all that you cared about

I feel what's being asked is are you ready to die a question no one could possibly predict how they would have this conversation it's heart wrenching just thinking about this poor little girl and her parents/family

I think these parents are the bravest and most selfless people. They are willing to let their daughter go, rather than put her through any more pain. At 5 years old, the little girl probably understands some of the details of her illness, but completely understands that hospital treatment hurts which is heartbreaking.
If she has been brought up in a Christian family, who firmly believe in the afterlife in heaven, I don't see anything wrong with giving her the right to choose heaven over painful treatment. She's only a baby and has been through more than most of us can comprehend.
I'll be sure to put this family in my prayers

YABU OP. This child's parents are doing their best for their dying child. They are not harming her. They are not lying to her.

Strength and love to them and all the parents in their situation and to the bereaved Mnetters here who have taken the time to post.

Beliefs can and often do change

I have worked with bereaved parents who were atheists who now do have some form of belief of the afterlife it brings them some comfort others who believed and it brings them no comfort but more confusion and those that feel their religion or beliefs is what gets them through life they know one day they will once again be with their child

If only we could allow parents in this most horrendous situation speak and listen about how they feel but it's too difficult for is to hear to take on board. Thankfully most of is don't know and never will. Even having worked with parents who have lost a child (and in use that term as those I have worked with have) I still can't fully empathise as in I can't imagine what they have felt as it's too painful to but I can just listen and accept their feelings without judgement it is not hard to do

And thankyou for those of you who have shared their personal stories

It is appropriate to seek and take heed of the child's view.

I can't see how you could do anything else.

You could tell her that she has to undergo further treatment as a when she needs it but is that ethical? There must be a point at which you say that the treatment is too unpleasant to be worth the extra weeks of life it could bring. Without hearing the child's view, how do you gauge when that time is? How about the effect on the quality of her remaining life of knowing that she could be subjected to distressing treatment at any time against her will?

You could decide to withdraw any further treatment without consulting her but what if she felt that the treatment was worthwhile in order to give her more time with Mummy? Is it fair to deny her that opportunity?

The child is the only one who experiences the treatment so she is only only on who can decide when the benefits it brings no longer outweigh the distress it causes.

When death is near, people do think about the afterlife and also about the memories and legacy of this life. I think the child needs to know she is going to leave this life to give her a chance to say her own good byes but perhaps she knows already. I think it important to take into account a child's wishes.

That is not the same as the child taking a final decision which is probably taken by parents, specialists and others who know the child and her condition and the options.

There is heaven and God in my opinion. And hell. And rebirth. But thats just my belief. I think it highly likely a five year old would go to heaven. Even if I didn't believe in heaven I would think it OK for parents to tell a child that is where she is gong so she dies peacefully.

The trouble with taking decisions based on whether or not injections/drips/hospital admissions are painful and distressing is that usually those things are temporary and we are encouraged to tolerate them for the longer term gain. A small child might not understand that.

But with very complex incurable conditions there can come a point where the risks and pain of treatment outweigh the benefits. Even modern medicine cannot cure everything.

Even grown ups and the elderly come to this point at some time or another and perhaps this thread has made me think about how we smooth the emotional/spiritual path of ourselves and our loved ones (without being too cheesy or glibly religious or anything) when we face death.