5 year old - heaven vs hospital (sensitive)

[LadyShirazz]

Just wondered what MNers were making of this, very sad, story.

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/juliana-snow-heaven-hospital_563049a0e4b0c66bae5a2989

Summary: Very ill 5 year old child, who will die of her condition sooner or later, is given the choice between further, painful hospital treatment to prolong life or "heaven" by her Christian parents.

I'm an atheist but torn on this one.

No cailindana that's not correct imo. It's really important that even young children get to make decisions about their health. Sometimes parents will decide otherwise for a child and that's their prerogative but the best thing for everybody is that there is open communication and joint decision making. It is not about making the parents feel less guilt .

I was an atheist until the day we were told our dd might have died after an accident. It was abroad and we had no real news apart from sky news and the internet.

I dropped to my knees and prayed and prayed. It was instinctive and immensity comferting.

A few hours later the counselate and police called together to tell us she was onthe survivors list.

I now pray regularly and go knot church to say thank you.

I think no one can possibly say what on earth they would do in these circumstances and I think her parents are doing what any parent would do. The best for their child.

The point I think some people have missed is that this is a Christian family - and no doubt, the little girl has grown up with the idea of heaven: I certainly had by 5 years old, though no immediate family members had died. She may well have gone to Sunday School, they may do Bible reading at home - she certainly will have celebrated Easter. So the issue is not so much are they telling her about heaven and it might not be true - to them, it absolutely is - but rather, that they are involving her in her care and the decision not to proceed with further issues.

It's not that a five year old will instinctively choose heaven over pain - at five, from a believing home, she's likely to have a slightly more nuanced understanding than that - but rather, that the parents have taken a heart-breaking decision to consult her.

How horrible for them . I'm agnostic but my 4 year old keeps asking about my late dad who died when I was 13. She keeps asking why I can't see him anymore and I told her that he died. Her reply was "but where is he?" And the only way I could explain death was to say that people go to heaven. I would struggle to tell her that when you die that's that and it would frighten her.

I also struggle with the thought that my Dad might not be waiting for me in Heaven, which is why I guess I say I'm agnostic. I can't deny it completely .

There's a lot 'If it were me, I would . . . ' but it isn't you. And until it is, you have no idea and I'm very glad that is so because I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

100% this. I'm so sorry you have been through this too Expat

You just don't know what you will do until you are there, you just can't plan what to do or say.

Thank you Wol. Your apology is appreciated Splatter

When I was about four my mother told me the baby in the photos we were looking at, who I thought was me, was in fact my "sister" who'd died before I was born. Whose replacement I was, in fact.

Both my parents were strident atheists and made it very clear that my sister was dead and gone and was absolutely nothing any more; any idea of an afterlife was just a silly fairy story for fools to believe in.

I wish with all my heart they'd told me she was in heaven, even if they didn't believe it themselves. It would have made it easier for me to bear if they had. As it was, the guilt was horrific and crushing, and the only way I could conceptualise her death was as a nightmare of eternal isolation and loneliness (probably a projection of my own childhood experience, but still).

These parents are just trying to make the most incredibly painful and scary thing that bit less painful and scary for their poor wee girl. How can a child that age possibly understand the concept of nothingness after death and look it in the face without terror? I know from experience they can't. Her parents are just loving her as best they can, while they still can. And if it gives them comfort too, God knows they need and deserve it.

for you Elsa and Sugar.

And for you too, expat, sorry, I hasn't seen your post before.

I'm an atheist but if there is no heaven, it really doesn't matter if she thinks she is going to it, because she won't know any different. She's being raised christian, so it is a genuine expectation for her. Anyway, I'd say whatever I felt would comfort and reassure most.

You're right expat, apologies. I should have said I hope I'd do that.

I don't know how anyone could judge this family, or any other, for doing what they believe is best for their child in the most horrific of circumstances. I can't even imagine this situation without wanting to cry, to be a parent watching their child battle an illness they can't beat, knowing that one day and one day soon that illness is going to take them from you, I don't want to imagine it.

What's even worse to imagine is that scared child, questioning what is to come for them, and as a parent I think all you can do is make that passing as peaceful and calm as you can, I think most people would say anything to their child to take their fear away in this situation.

It's just heartbreaking.

Heaven doesn't cease to exist just because all the Mumsnetters don't believe in it. I believe in heaven. If it's not true l have nothing to lose as gives me great peace now. If it is true even better. I'm amazed at how opinionated some people are. That family have faith and that's their prerogative. I have friends whose 5 year old died and at the very end he told his parents he saw Jesus coming for him.His parents said it's OK you can go with him. And be died smiling. Heartbreaking but surely better than telling him he was going into a hole in the ground. When you see a dead body where do you think the real heart of the person is?

I agree with Mrs DV. My son died in my arms. He only had a few hours. I prayed from the moment we knew his condition was likely to be incompatible with life. There was the teeniest, tiniest chance he could have survived. That's why we didn't terminate, that's why we prayed, that's why we had hope. He is in heaven now and one day I will join him.

That was nearly 20 years ago. How the fuck do some of you people think those of us left behind cope. It's called hope. It's called love. It's called hanging onto something better than can possibly be when you are consumed by grief and have to get through the rest of your life the best you possibly can for the sake of your family and your sanity. It's what keeps the bright smile and outwardly happy outlook intact.

Hugs for all those who have suffered the pain of understanding this.

And actually OP and some who have made unfeeling remarks on this thread. Some of us remember not so long back when candles were alight the length and breadth of Mumsnet, the UK and elsewhere for Eilidh (I hope I've used the correct spelling expat) because we were all praying for a miracle. There were posts on that thread saying that another candle had appeared in window in someone else's street because the power of prayer and love and thought was hoped to be so great.

I'm quite emotional now and almost shaking with anger having read all the pages.

This thread too has had me in tears.

I kinda understand the op and when I first read the story I thought well obviously she's going to pick heaven over going back to hospital and having painful treatment.

But I also do think children like adults know when they've had enough and are ready to stop treatment. My parents lost their dd, long before I was born, when she was 3 she's was born with several problems and had had numerous operations and I remember it being said that even at 3 she had said no more to my dp.

to everyone who has had to experience this first hand. I know I'm crying at the thought of the pain you and my dp must have and be going through and how much it would hurt my heart if anything happened to my dd.

I was brought up Christian but am now agnostic and a hairsbreadth from atheism. I remember quite a lot from all those endless hours in Sunday school and church though. One of the ten commandments is about not bearing false witness. These parents aren't bearing false witness as far as they're concerned: they believe they are telling the truth about the existence of heaven.

There's another bit somewhere that talks about three things abiding, "faith, hope and love...and the greatest of these is love". Their belief in heaven is a manifestation of their faith and hope. They are telling their child about it because of love- for love of her as much as love of god. They are letting her help to choose her future because they believe it is a loving thing to do. Their approach to the situation is based on what anyone else (religious or not and no matter how they chose to discuss it) would base it on- love - and that's what matters.

I can understand why the parents have done this. If it means their dd won't be scared or worried about it then I would say it is definitely the right thing to do

I'm not very religious and I don't know how I'd feel in their awful, heartbreaking situation but my instinct I feel would be to try and be truthful but to want desperately to protect from fear and if that meant talking about heaven when I'm not even sure myself what I believe then yes, I'd do it

We do the best we can by our children. And those of you saying, 'But it's not true,' this family is Christian. It is true by their beliefs. They are harming no one in this. It is a situation no one should ever be in, but as MrsDeVere says, it is real. This is not hypothetical, this is a truth for many who are facing the death of their children. There is no 'I would'. This is. And all that comes after it.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe, sugar21, expatinscotland, MrsDeVere and BeaufortBelle, I am so very sorry for you all. I expect it is painful to read this here, but thank you for sharing.

I was reading this with tears in my eyes. It is so bloody sad.

I am a Christian and I think the parents are amazing and are doing totally the righ thing. They know there is very little chance or choice about anything it is just a case of when and what happens immediately before her death.

They have given her a choice because that is fair for her, (and as others have said the doctors etc will have been involved) and maybe it is also fairer on the parents because they can really feel they did their best for her. I would want any parent to have that feeling that they did the right thing. As others have said, they are not lying about heaven, they are Christians and they believe in it.

I would also imagine Juliana (and indeed any child who has suffered a lifetime of hospitals, pain and physical restrictions) may have a much better idea of life and death and of what it may mean than many of us (myself included) who have never had such experiences. She may have been close to death before, so I would imagine she does have an understanding,

Indeed in the article it says that Juliana said 'When you die, you don’t do anything. You don’t think.' So she does understand what death is, but she has been told about heaven and maybe in some way she also believes that too.

Just as an aside - many Christians believe that when they are resurrected to new life it will be all at once, so Juliana may die alone but when she goes to heaven her parents will be there.

I think the parents are doing totally the right thing.

Elsa, I'm so very very sorry. I completely agree.

I had to have a similar discussion about choices discussion with Ds, at about 5, tho we had a happy ending.

And others as well as Elsa.

Just wondered what MNers were making of this, very sad, story.

I'm thinking that no one has the right to judge. No one has the right to say what they would do in this situation unless you have walked in the shoes.

I want to say otherwise shut up, leave them alone, fuck off with your opinion.

Our conversation was about not continuing treatment if at some stage he just felt too tired, not sleepy but exhausted, for a long time, not just one day, and if he wasn't enjoying things. And the option was that he would be surrounded by love for the people he had known who were no longer here, and ditto dogs, and people he hadn't known like my DF and baby sister, and dogs.

He was perfectly capable of understanding the issue. And realised what it meant as other children disappeared. And asked the direct question " am I going to die and when?"

From, not for.