AIBU? Why can't people think before they speak? A gender rant.

[babarthefuckingelephant]

My son is 2. He's obsessed with trains, cars, trucks, diggers and running at the speed of light into things, climbing trees, you know the usual.
He is also just as obsessed with glitter, dancing, swirling, singing, sparkly, pretty, colourful, dolls, literally just as much as the usual boy stuff. Nothing has ever been particularly encouraged one way or the other, he has never been pushed towards cars or glitter, and some days he favours one or the other. But he does what he likes and he likes what he does. (Which usually brings meltdowns when getting dressed in the morning if an outfit isn't colourful enough).

He's been wearing a purple tuelle tutu skirt for the last two days. Literally every waking moment. He was dressed for bed last night and then undressed himself and went and put the tutu back on. He wanted to wear it again today.
He put it on with some grey leggings underneath (that had nuts and bolts on), a t shirt, some chelsea boots and a navy blue wooly hoodie.
Nursery are great with this stuff so no problems there. We got to playgroup afterwards and comments from everybody there were like "Oh whats her name?" and when I told them and said He's 2, they would say "Oh, well good for him, I just assumed because of the girls skirt that it was a girl" (He otherwise looks like a boy, short hair ect), "You do whatever you want theres nothing wrong with wearing a girls skirt", that kind of thing, generally making quite a big deal of it.

Afterwards we went to the farm with his friend, Where there were more comments asking what her name was (I know an easy mistake and not what got to me in the slightest) but the reaction when I said "He is ..."
One woman even looked at him and said "Oh, well your little friend and your little sister, you're surrounded by girls is that why you're wearing girls clothes?" and another woman saying "You wear that girls skirt, my son liked things like that but everyone skitted at him"

I mean I know people are just rude sometimes but why make a huge point of it being girls? Why can't people just say "oh thats a nice skirt" or say nothing at all? His friend is the same age and a girl, and I'm pretty sure had she been wearing it nobody would have said "oh what a lovely girls skirt you have on"
It made me feel so cruel for letting him go out with it on, but what message is it giving to society by telling him not to? Ive never looked at a young girl with a football shirt on and said "what a lovely boys shirt you're wearing".

Why is it such an atrocity in this day and age to comment on anything at all that a woman or girl shouldn't do or have, but boys are just as equally stereotyped from infancy about what they can and can't do or like. Why can't people just smile or look the other way? Why does it have to be such a big thing. And now I've ranted on AIBU like it is a big thing but I just don't know why people have to put outdated ideas into tiny heads like that?

Are you using the correct pronoun for you son?

Apparently how your clothing/appearance fits into gender stereotypes determines your gender.

So given that your son appears to want to look like a girl, it might be more appropriate to use 'she/her' pronoun. What basis do you actually have using 'him'?

But you haven't addressed your own contradictions. You say your ds 'looks like a boy, (short hair etc), and his leggings had nuts and bolts on them. He wore a navy blue jumper. So anyone should have assumed he was a boy based on his appearance?

Maybe i haven't Abby, but I meant that more for context in the sense that I was making clear that the only part of his outfit that was "different" conventionally was the tutu, he didn't have his sparkly vans on or a magic wand.

I do think Im using the right pronoun on the basis that he is biologically a boy and would identify himself as a boy. A boy that likes cars trucks glitter and tutus, I don't think the fact that he likes a bit of sparkle means he has a different gender.

What is so special about a tutu that it should only be for girls? Just because society says so?

I don't understand those of you saying "but you knew it would provoke attention" Why??

Because you knew it would. Come now. Look at how much press celebrities get when they come out as gay or transgendered. You know it turns heads and grabs attention. You do. Pretending to be surprised by this isn't fooling anyone.

I know when DD is out in a cute dress people will stop to comment. I am not shocked when they do.

It's one thing to know a child will get attention by ignoring gender norms, it's another thing to complain about that. You have used that chance to tell them it's ok for boys to wear girl things and leave it at that. If you want to use your child to pioneer breaking down those barriers, you need to understand you'll be explaining to a lot of different people.

My child wants to wear ridiculous outfits too. Guess what? I put her in an appropriate outfit if I don't want people to think I can't dress my child her to wear that. Because I am the adult and she is the child. She will not die wearing a pair of leggings and a T-shirt instead of a dinosaur costume. At home is fine. But she needs to learn how to dress for the occasion. That includes wearing dress code at school, nice clothes to church, and second hand play clothes when she's going to get muddy.

I'm not sure why 2 year olds are left to decide everything for themselves? You're supposed to be the parent and provide guidance and boundaries.

What if he wanted to leave the house naked? Would you allow it simply because that's what he wanted to do at the time? Or, you tell him no because there is a societal standard that says we have to be clothed when we go out.

At some point he has to learn those boundaries as really would you show up at work or for a job interview wearing a spiderman costume? And if you wouldn't then why wouldn't you?

Wow OP, you've clearly touched a nerve!! YANBU to let a 2yo wear a tutu if that's what they insist on, I've occasionally let my DC wear odd or mismatching things for an easy life. YA also NBU for expressing disappointment at how gendered our society is that is provokes a reaction from so many adults.
But this is AIBU so I wouldn't be too surprised that you're getting a hard time!

It's hard to think of things to say to (and about) a toddler you don't know very well. I agree that gender stereotyping, discussion of fashion, and comments on appearance are among the worst choices. I usually try to focus on hobbies, literature, or current events.

Society doesn't say tutus are just for girls - ballet does.

That's what everyone associates tutus with and in ballet, the female dancers wear the tutus.

That's why people thought of it as a girls skirt, not because 'society' is seeking to oppress your child's individuality or choices.

I couldn't care less what a toddler wears and I wouldn't comment but you're really over thinking this.

It sounds like a complete mountain out of a molehill. So your DS decided at 2yo wear a tutu. He chooses his clothes.... right... so when it's pissing down with rain and he wants sandals on, that's OK then. Nope, it's just the tutu.

It sounds to me, you were really pleased he decided that's what he wanted to wear to the farm and you were there ready for the comments because whatever anyone said, you would have read something negative into it. You talk of it being an 'atrocity' and him being 'slagged off'. Hardly! All the comments sound lovely to me, you were just out to nitpick whatever anyone said.

My DD1 (she's now an adult) was a bit lacking in the hair department when little and always being mistaken as a boy, then there was embarrassment if I said she was a DD not a DS. That's all you've experienced so your social experiment at the farm didn't bring out anything new!

And BTW boys and girls are different, always have been, always will.

I also think you were delighted that he apparently 'chose' this little creation to wear.

Does it make you feel an uber PC parent.

To be honest I'd have prob done a double take at a kid in a tutu at a farm . Either sex.

I live in Brighton and it's not particularly unusual to see young boys in dresses, skirts. In my DS's school there is a boy in year 6 (10/11) that wears a girl's uniform to school and has a handbag as a school bag. There are so many boys that have bob length hair, a few with long hair that when my DD who is 4 started reception, a school administrator has twice mistaken her for a boy. This is not a boast but my DD is quite obviously a girl, she is very pretty and she has never, ever been mistaken for a boy even as a newborn baby, so I can only assume that other stereotypes are going on there in that a 'girl' only has long hair not pixie bobs.

Despite this modern setting my DS is now 8 and would never ever wear a dress. He wouldn't comment on a boy who did wear one but it is not the norm, even in a school like his. There is a boy in his class that eagerly put his hand up in assembly to be part of choir to perform, 'Let It Go' from Frozen, despite there age a lot of girls were keen but this boy was the only one that volunteered and a few 8/9 year old boys did mock him for this after assembly- not my DS I hasten to add. A lot of these boys 4 years ago probably would've liked to have done this but these choices are noticed when boys get older. My DS has absolutely no desire to wear a dress and is not curious at all that's not because I have told him its wrong, he just does not have any inclination to do so.

The reality is you cannot control how other people react to situations in life. What is important is that your child knows that they 'are' in control of how they respond. I realise at two he's not going to be aware of that but in that respect you've got to lead by example.

Hmmmm you have a problem with people calling it a "girls skirt". However, you describe trains/climbing trees etc as "the usual boy stuff". A little hypocritical me thinks!

My sons didn't wear tutu type things.
However, when out and about l was constantly asked if l "had any sons"
Things always go strangely in public!

My toddler boys were sometimes taken for girls, maybe because I liked to let their curls grow. It didn't bother me because it didn't bother them. They've since chosen their own hair length and have moved to short. (Seeing my teen trying to form a fringe from long frizz was funny for a season!)

No one in the entire family ever wears anything other than trousers except for special occasions where kilts and skirts have been worn - rarely. We all find ballet inexplicable.

But, Worra, "tomboy" is another way of telling children they must act 'in gender'. You're telling a girl she's a boy. Called Tom.

That was exactly my point Garlick, in response to the OP saying Why the world is free for girls to be anything they like but boys shouldn't push any of societies boundaries. Its backwards.

The OP seems to be ignoring the fact that when girls want to climb/get muddy/play football, they'll often get called a tomboy...

Nobody was nasty to your DS.
He's happy.
Who cares, really?

It's so fashionable (at least on here) to be all "right on" and cool about things like this. Yes kids should be able to wear whatever they like. But sometimes I think people actively encourage the attention grabbing outfits in the hope that someone will comment. That way they not only get to impress others with their special, prepared speech on Why My SonCan Wear A Bridesmaids Dress To Tesco If He Wants To but they can come on here afterwards and have a lovely bosom hoiking, mutual back slapping session with other such mothers.

I really don't see the issue here. No-one said he shouldn't be wearing the tutu. People were actually supportive in what they said.

You seem to want the tutu to go entirely unnoticed. This is unlikely, given that it's a fairly eye-catching item. I don't see children out and about in tutus or fancy dress costumes very much at all, girls or boys. When I do see one in the supermarket or the park, it tends to catch my eye. A tutu is a far more prominent item of clothing than a navy jumper, so that's what people will tend to notice, and given that more girls than boys wear tutus/skirts, people are likely to make the assumption that the wearer is a girl.

Like it or not, historically a tutu was an item of clothing worn exclusively by girls/women. Things have changed a lot over the years, and society is becoming more accepting of men/boys wanting to wear traditionally female clothing. We're not yet at a stage where it's seen as completely everyday, but we're on that path. But you can't go back in time and erase the history of an item of clothing and force people not to make a connection with a particular gender.

At some point in the future skirts might be seen as an entirely unisex item, and at that point people won't have the same automatic associations when they see one. But right now they do, and you can't force people's minds to work differently. All you can do is expect acceptance of a boy choosing to wear an item of clothing traditionally associated with girls. And you seem to have got that acceptance.

Cultural/social changes take time, and memories/associations don't disappear overnight just because people are starting to rub away at traditional gender boundaries. People saying 'oh that's ok' is a step on that path, and something to be encouraged, not huffed at.

Fair enough point, Worra.

I agree with Goldenbear: The reality is you cannot control how other people react to situations in life. What is important is that your child knows that they 'are' in control of how they respond. I realise at two he's not going to be aware of that but in that respect you've got to lead by example.

I feel sure "Yes, it's his favourite at the moment" is a good enough response :)

Meant to say, I have two boys and a third on the way. Both of them have, at various times, danced around in their cousin's princess dresses. They don't go out in them, because I'm not traipsing around with any child, male or female, trailing a mass of net and chiffon in the mud and catching it on their shoes every other step.

I see a lot of kids out & about in their fancy clothes. Most families have washing machines; it makes sense for a happy child & an easier life!

I'll sometimes compliment a kid on their outfit, but it doesn't feel at all necessary to ask about their sex. That would be weird - like demanding to see their genitals

"Are you a girl or a boy?"
"Why do you need to know?"

Oh for goodness sake.

Most people think of a tutu/dress/skirt/bridal gown as clothes for girls. Quite a lot of people will think putting a boy in one of the above is odd, wrong or comment worthy. That's how the world is. It's sad, but it's true.

If you don't want your son exposed to this then don't let him go out in those clothes.

Don't use him to try and change the world, or be all surprised when he gets a reaction dressed like this. His choice to wear the tutu wasn't a conscious decision to challenge stereotyping because he's too young to get it, but you're not.

I do see what you're saying, but those comments didn't seem designed to cause offence.

I'm expecting DS1 in a few weeks, and I am getting hacked off with people telling me I'm wrong for buying clothes/toys in blue because I'm stereotyping... I like blue! Apparently DS is going to grow up a misogynist because of all the blue stuff I've bought

I have painted the nursery blue as it has a seaside theme, and I'd have done the same if I were having a DD because the sea is special to me. I don't like pink!

Dimlow you have commited the heinous crime of planning on putting anything that isn't pink or sparkly on your child!

Remove yourself from MN immediately.

Ps: congratulations on the upcoming arrival

I am glad to see the response has generally been sensible on this thread. I will just make two comments:

There is a huge assumption (on MN) that all gendered behaviour is conditioned by society. I am not wholly convinced by this. In most species different sexes mark their sex by differences in behaviour. There is no reason to suggest that humans are the sole exception to this. There is Cordelia Fine's 'Delusions of Gender' book which contests this but, although she does a good job of debunking studies, she cites some fairly dubious ones herself. In addition, she hand wavingly dismissed a study on one day old newborns, which suggested that there is some innate difference, by suggesting that they had already been socialised. Hmmm....

Clearly, there is no reason for children of either sex to like a particular colour. However, if children are trying to match behaviour to their sex (which may or may not be a healthy stage in development) they will choose to fit in with the fashion of the time.

Having said all the above, even if ALL gendered behaviour is caused by socialisation, then both sexes of children should wear sensible clothes FOR PLAY, as playing is natural childhood behaviour. A tutu neither keeps you warm, nor is it particularly comfortable, and should be relegated to fancy dress and ballet for either sex.

I don't think, from what you've said, OP, that they were that bothered. Or at least they were trying not to be bothered and going a bit over the top in reassuring you that they weren't.

I agree it would be better if they didn't say anything, but some people just haven't seen little boys in tutus and aren't good (yet) at concealing their surprise.

Things will change