Most people are clueless about protein or calcium needed

[Floflomo]

I follow a vegan diet and the amount of people that go on about protein or calcium is ridiculous and just shows they are totally clueless.

The RDA for protein isn't that big at all, many veg contains protein so before even getting onto to nuts, seeds and pulses I've had half of the RDA just from veg.

Calcium is in way more foods than just dairy, I had figs in porridge for breakfast made with almond milk. For lunch I'm having a salad with lots of leafy greens with a dressing made from tahini, so I'm doing just great with calum and getting it from a variety of sources.

Again I'm not disagreeing with you, but what about children who are allergic to dairy? What happens when they hit puberty? Is it just tough shit?

Hides thread.

Its like being back in the ignorant ninety's.

Côte and Toads I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

Eating only naturally occurring vegan foods is not compatible with life - I agree
However, a vegan diet - including foods fortified with B12/supplementing with B12 is more than adequate.
I'd also recommend that vegans take but K2, and that everyone supplements with D3.

As a lazy omni, veggie and now vegan I also take a multivitamin just to cover all bases as I have never been one to count along nutrients

Re calcium - just had a very quick Google and 100ml/g milk = 125mg calcium
Kale 100g = 150mg calcium
Rocket = 160 mg calcium

Then I got bored. But both sides are right - some vegetables do contain more calcium than milk per 100g , but it is easier to drink 100ml milk, than eat 100g rocket...

"Lol no vegan has ever gone to medical school?"

Is this an English comprehension problem? That is not what I have said.

"You trust a doctor that says to eat a load of foods designed for another mammals infants who's anatomy is totally difference."

I'm funny like that. I'd rather take diet advice for my rapidly growing child from someone who has had specific medical training and has decades of experience treating children or at the very least writes "whose" where appropriate.

You might like to look into just how similar cow's milk is to human breast milk. Or you might like to breastfeed your children until the end of puberty. I honestly don't care

"The medical advice is always hideously outdated"

As opposed to vegan websites, I presume? Don't make me laugh.

"some vegetables do contain more calcium than milk per 100g"

Here we go again:

CoteDAzur Mon 26-Oct-15 15:48:48
"there's more calcium in green veg then milk."
Since we are all for alleviating cluelessness on this thread, here is a new word: Bioavailability.

Cote why does vegetarian and veganism anger you so much?

Côte a quick Google found this?
"Absorption of calcium from intrinsically labeled kale was measured in 11 normal women and compared in these same subjects with absorption of calcium from labeled milk. The average test load was 300 mg. Fractional calcium absorption from kale averaged 0.409 +/- 0.101 (means +/- SD) and from milk, 0.321 +/- 0.089 (P less than 0.025). In contrast with the poor absorption previously reported for spinach calcium, kale, a low-oxalate vegetable, exhibits excellent absorbability for its calcium."
m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/51/4/656.abstract

itsbetter - Why would you think I am angry? I assure you I'm not.

Itsall - Yes, bioavailability of calcium in kale is comparable to that in milk but calcium content in milk is of course much higher: 276 mg of calcium in 1 cup of milk vs 101 mg of calcium in 1 cup of chopped kale.

Almost all those who choose to be vegan do so for moral reasons, which is fine.
However, what may be morally the best diet is a separate issue from what is the healthiest diet - also some individuals cannot tolerate lactose, or glutein, or nuts ....

Population surveys can only produce associations, not proof.
Any hypothesis from such work should be tested under controlled conditions:
Association does not equal causation

The most detailled US surveys show:
Those who ate the most red meat also smoked the most, drank the most alcohol, exercised the least, ate far more calories in total, i.e. had the most unhealthy lifestyles.

Although statistical weighting is supposed to deal with such confounding factors, when the quantity being measured is small - e.g. a lifetime colorecal cancer risk of 5% is increased to 6% for those who ate the most red and processed meat compared to those who ate none - then a small change or bias in statistical sampling or methodology can change results.

In contrast, the surveys on smoking were easy to assess, because a pack per day has a 2,000% increased risk of lung cancer compared to a non-smoker.

ToadsJustFellFromTheSky it is a very interesting debate whether or not plants feel pain. Some people, like you, think they cannot because they "do not have nerves and a brain". I personally think it is a very limited way to think other beings only feel pan if they have exactly he same physiology and anatomy as we do. It is like saying that spiders cannot see because their ayes are completely different from ours.

*eyes

sorry for typos, my cordless keyboard is running out of battery!

I like the idea of spiders having aye ayes.

"The most detailled US surveys show:
Those who ate the most red meat also smoked the most, drank the most alcohol, exercised the least, ate far more calories in total, i.e. had the most unhealthy lifestyles."

Also, "meat" in the US is frequently processed, almost always not bio, and often grilled/charred at high temperatures. In Meduteranean cuisine, meat is often slow-cooked with vegetables at low temperatures.

CoteDAzur
I think the point was that a vegan diet is not adequate whereas a varied and balanced diet that includes all major food groups for omnivore humans is.

Where do you think meat eaters are going wrong, then? Why, for example, does NICE suggest supplementation for the estimated 10 million people in England who have low Vitamin D status? (For info, total number of vegans in the UK is thought to be around 150,000.)

www.nice.org.uk/news/press-and-media/millions-of-people-at-risk-of-low-vitamin-d-need-better-access-to-supplements-to-protect-health-says-nice

And why the current increase in obesity related diseases, thought to cost the NHS billions each year? Regardless of how good you think an omnivorous diet is on paper, the reality is that many meat eaters do not have an optimal diet.

CoteDAzur
You would think that we would not be having this conversation years after Gwyneth Paltrow managed to give herself pre-osteoporosis at the grand old age of 38, but some people just don't want to learn.

When and for how long was GP a vegan? Guardian article/interview with her on food in 2013 doesn't include the word vegan. (Abstaining from red meat for 20 years does not constitute veganism.)

www.theguardian.com/film/2013/apr/20/gwyneth-paltrow-food-family-dicaprio

CoteDAzur
Since we are all for alleviating cluelessness on this thread, here is a new word: Bioavailability.

I thought this post was bizarre the first time round. Very odd to talk about (intrinsic) bioavailability, without referencing e.g. the vitamins, minerals, dietary, lifestyle, gender and genetic factors that influence the absorption, retention and loss of calcium on an individual basis. To focus purely on generic bioavailability rather suggests an ignorance of other factors.

"Why, for example, does NICE suggest supplementation for the estimated 10 million people in England who have low Vitamin D status?"

That would be because most people in the UK don't see the sun very often.

"And why the current increase in obesity related diseases, thought to cost the NHS billions each year?"

My guess would be: Junk food, carbohydrate-heavy diets, lots of sugar.

That is not what anyone here means by "omnivorous", I hope you know.

I know several vegans and quite a few vegetarians. Some are shockingly obese. It seems you need to get your calories from somewhere, and if meat and animal fat is out of the picture, people tend to turn towards carbohydrates.

"When and for how long was GP a vegan?"

I get that all you want to do is ask me questions but maybe you can find out the answers to some of these by yourself.

"Bioavailability. - To focus purely on generic bioavailability rather suggests an ignorance of other factors."

Does it now

Someone said "there is more calcium in green veg than milk" and I said she needs to look up the word "bioavailability" because it doesn't matter how much calcium there is somewhere if we can't get most of it out.

Cote maybe angry is the wrong word. Bitter. Obsessed.

Horrible? Mean? Heartbreakingly rational?

I suggest you try playing the ball and not the man. It will make your time on MN a much more pleasant experience.

It's more just that you are on every single thread about vegetarianism making hack jokes. It's strange.

Surely I'm not and it would be none of your business if I were.

Are we done here? I'm getting a stalker vibe from you that I am not comfortable with.

It's hard not to notice when looking on threads on this particular theme when they pop up that there's the same poster every time making the same sarcastic points and 'jokes' about vegetarianism. I won't be the only one that's noticed. Hardly stalker behaviour.

I will report you if you post one more comment about me. Bye.