daughter really upset about forthcoming school trip

[Dieu]

Hello everyone
My 14 year old daughter goes to a private girls' school, and is in short a really nice kid. She doesn't have a nasty bone, and does well to navigate some of the bitching that goes on at her school.
The school also has a separate boys' high, and occasionally the two come together for trips.
There is going to be a week long residential trip next year, and I have just broken the news to her that it's compulsory (and not optional, as she originally thought).
Her reaction was pretty bad, and she's really upset. She is terrified of being put together with the boys for that long. To be fair, as with any school (and gender!) some of them can be extremely nasty and their attitudes towards girls just awful. I think my daughter has seen a lot of it on social media, and it's the lack of escape on the trip that's worrying her.
Apparently the showers there are shared, and they wear their swimming costumes in them. SOME boys will think nothing of commenting on the girls' body shapes, etc. Of course my daughter is beautiful in my eyes, and in her own, but she knows herself that as someone who is tallest, ginger, not the skinniest etc, she could be a target for them.
She's normally a very reasonable, lovely girl but her reaction has worried me. Of course I tried to say all the right things, that the thought will be worse than the reality, that the boys probably won't care, that she shouldn't care etc. It sounded hollow though, and like I was trying to minimise her distress.
I'm normally a 'chin up and get on with it' parent and try not to pander to too much nonsense, but she's really scared and upset. She says she won't eat in front of the boys, so as not to attract nasty comments from them.
Gaaah. How would you prepare your teenage daughter for this trip?
Thanks.

Have you considered therapy for your DD? Something is awry here

what.the.hell

if all she sees is the "popular boys" making vile comments about her classmates (am I allowed to say they are probably posing pouting with midriff out, boobs out and pouting? does that make me sexist or I am stating a fact!?)

I am not surprised she is scared! Fuck me I hate social media for teenager, evil

My daughter - now 18 - tells me that a kind of low-level sexual harassment is just her daily experience when walking along the street. (It doesn't happen when she's walking with me, but does if she's with her female friends or on her own.) Unless it's really unpleasant or aggressive, she copes in the main.

However, it would be more unpleasant fora younger girl on a residential trips. Groups of boys can get together to behave in a bullying way. If a girl does not have a strong friendship group, her female peers won't step in to protect them. (They'll be glad it's not happening to them, and relieved that their in safer place in the hierarchy.)

Because it's a residential and a) staffing won't work as it does in ordinary school and b) some staff members will be unknown teachers from the boy schools, it will be hard for students to be confident in advance that there'll be adequate support.

However, you'd expect some kind of behaviour code to be circulated in the advance information, as well as a lot of details about activities and facilities. I'd want to see the behaviour code, and find out how this is to be implemented, what sanctions there would be for breaches of the code.

Love the idea that they will not be mysogynist or likely to sexually harass girls because they are privately educated!

It's very sad, all this. Why are our girls still having to put up with this? I mean, the school trip shower thing might well be all hyped up and not that way at all in reality, but the fact that so many of us can well imagine it (especially those of us with daughters) is very sad.

I really feel for your DD, I had the same fear of the unknown as a youngster. I also went to a single sex private school and struggled with the idea of boys. I didn't get any help or reassurance from my parents who were of the view that you just had to get on with things and that any fears I had were largely my fault for being a bit wet!

I'd occasionally go to mixed dances with the local boys school and that was usually a pretty horrific meat market. For some reason my mum also had a bee in her bonnet about never saying no to a boy who asked me to dance as he might be upset at the rejection . This set me up for a lot of problems as you can imagine.

I think you need to reassure your daughter that any boy who comments on her body or her appearance is 100% in the wrong and that she should not be scared to report such behavior to an adult. You should also reassure her that there are boys out there who will want to be friends with her and talk to her like a human being.

A quick and very timely example. I collected my son from a residential trip to France just last night. He is 13 and he went with a mixed sex group from different schools in our region. He had a fantastic time and said the opportunity to meet and socialise with new boys and girls was as good as the learning opportunities.

He even said, get this, that he enjoyed talking late into the night with the 7 boys in his dorm. I asked what they talked about and he said, all sorts but they particularly enjoyed talking politics and had a long talk about the importance of equality between the sexes and the need for boys to be feminists! I was pretty bowled over by that but then he, and his male friends, are essentially good kids.

I really wish you and your dd well.

I have both a son and a daughter (16 and 15 so at a fairly similar stage). We are not in the UK but dd does not as far as I am aware face daily sexual harassment (and I am fairly confident she would tell me) nor would ds ever put up with it if he saw it around him (he is a bit of a social justice warrior and would absolutely step in and has done on other issues).

Sure there are some shitty teenage boys around, and absolutely sexual harassment is an issue but it's a bit sad to assume that the dd is right to be afraid, that there are no ways that her fears could be addressed and that she should lose out on an experience that might actually be not only harassment free but great fun.

I got harassed all the time as a teenage girl. I took it for granted that some creep would bother me whenever I travelled alone on public transport after 9pm. Shouts, catcalls, car horns, men latching on to your side as you walk down the street...this happened all the time. It happens less now, but it still happens. As a teenager, it was absolutely constant. I stopped even noticing it after a while - harassment and intimidation became normalised. And apparently still is. And if schools think it is acceptable to force teenagers to shower together in mixed company, wearing swimming costumes, it's no wonder.

And I got harassed at school as well. Groped between classes, comments about melons (my slim, athletic friend got the comments about aspirin on an ironing board - this was so hilarious it ended up in our yearbook and everyone thought it was just sooooo funnneeeeee), whatever the hell. Don't tell me teenage boys aren't capable of it. And especially don't tell me the nice middle class privately educated ones aren't!!!!

If my school had decided to force me to shower in my swimming costume in front of these dicks, I'd have faked illness to stay home. I'd have deliberately ODed on laxatives or something in order to MAKE myself too ill to go.

And I had plenty of male friends! I was always at ease with both boys and girls. (My parents used to tease me because they were convinced I was playing the boys off each other - I wasn't, we were friends!) But I had enough bad experience to know I had to be careful, and forced residential trips and communal showers are utterly out of order.

hully I've plenty of experience of 14 year old lads. My own is 16 and attended single sex school until sixth form.

The cohort was not a pack of sexists. They were ordinary nice lads, a bit daft, often soap dodging who loved football and eating their body weight in crisps.

Of course there were a few horrible dick heads. But they were not indicative of the cohort.

DD, who also went to a single sex school until sixth form, had various dealings with another male cohort for trips/productions and reported much the same. Majority nice with a couple of dick heads who were generally kept well in line by staff.

I don't think, based on what OP has said, that her DD has any evidence that the boys going on the trip will be somehow worse/different. Social media is not indicative of RL (thank God).

does your dd go to public swimming pools and swim in costume?

clearly the boys and girls wont be asked to shower together , but you can confirm that with the school.

getting out of her comfort zone will be good for her.

but, if she has deep rooted anxieties in general you could get her some counselling sessions. and/or sign her up for some martial arts/self defense type classes to boost confidence

Given what your dd has heard about the trip, I do not blame her for being anxious for one moment, Dieu. I hope that the school can reassure you and her about the trip - and I think you are striking exactly the right balance.

Your dd knows that you have listened to her concerns, and are taking them seriously, but that you haven't leapt to judgement and are trying to find out the facts before you and she come to a decision.

Dieu there are two things that strike me about your thread.
Firstly, I'd like to suggest that you back one step from the trip. If this kind of low level bullying is going on then you might want to try to get something done about it - it should not be happening. If the staff at the girls' school is mostly female you will probably find you have some strong allies.
Secondly, never underestimate the amount of gossipy hysteria that these trips can generate. The stories often start with some of the more 'knowing' girls and girls like your daughter actually believe the stories. I'm not suggesting that this is the case here, just that you consider it as a possibility.

I think the mothers of sons are - perhaps naturally - inclined to see teenage males as nice boys, who are occasionally a bit silly or thoughtless. Really, there's nothing to worry about.

Sexting, derogatory comments about girls' appearance, accessing unsuitable material on the internet. Using words like slag, bitch, tart, easy, fat cow. No, of course not, these things don't happen. (Or if it they do, that would be badly brought up boys from poor homes.) Perhaps one or two particularly 'silly' boys with a little bit of banter might go to far. And if they do it'ss just unfortunate that the occasional 'over-sensitive' girl, in need of therapy, doesn't get the joke.

The mothers of teenage daughters may be aware of a slightly different story. A less pleasant and reassuring one.

With all respect, a boy's mother is not the best authority on how he acts around girls his age, or women in general. Anyway, a few horrible dickheads is all a teenage girl needs to be intimidated or frightened. They shouldn't be viewed as something minor that women have a responsibility to get over!

But looking at recent threads here and elsewhere, I'm not hugely surprised at how many people are berating OP and her daughter. After all, here on Mumsnet, supposedly a hive of feminist activity, we have people who criticise a woman for using LinkedIn without a bag over her head, or who are more outraged by a silly discussion about cock size than violent pornography and death and rape threats on Twitter.

Hope for the next generation?

SheGot

If you really believe most of what you've posted then you're incredibly naive. And I have sons!

If you read my post you will see that I am aldo the mother of a teenaged DD.

My children are twins!

And DD reports that she experienced no real problem with any of this stuff with the cohort of boys she had dealings with during her single sex education.

And now in sixth form she reports that there is no real problem with a new cohort of boys (DS school). She confirms that DS and my views were correct. Mostly non sexist/nice with a few dick heads who are kept well under control.

I'm very glad about this. So is DD.

But by all means tell me I'm wrong, that my DC are both wrong...

Seems so sad that she has such a negative view of boys. It is true there might be some horrors on the trip (boys or girls) but I think you should work on the fact that not all boys are nasty, just the odd few. There is no way she will be showering with them or sleeping in the same area. If she doesn't want to mix with boys I doubt she will have to at all.

I went to an all girls school and during the few events/trips we had with boys everyone was pretty shy with the opposite sex and girls and boys tended to stick in their own groups. There were probably a few of the more confident ones that mixed. I can't remember anyone being rude. The worst bit was my friends making out I fancied one of the boys which was embarrassing!

Having daughters as well is utterly irrelevant. A parent is not the best authority on how their kids act when they are not there! I am quite sure the mothers of the boys who shouted 'melons' at me in the school corridors or openly groped me thought their kids were just wonderful.

I'm not accusing your kids of anything. I'm saying that if teenage girls are being made to feel uncomfortable or intimidated, it's not relevant that you think your son and most of his friends are lovely boys!

I would second looking into martial arts classes for your dd but this is another area where you need to be careful about the culture within the club. Given your dd's anxiety and lack of experience around boys I would look for a girls only class to start with or at least a female instructor in the room.

My dds are harassed by teenage boys as part of their daily lives. It is not what anyone wants for their dd but I agree it is our social reality. They both trained from a young age and are black belts. They do not accept this behaviour from boys or allow it to curtail or diminish them.

I did martial arts once briefly...I do seem to recall that the gender mix was very even, and the instructor was very egalitarian in his approach. My friends who do martial arts, both male and female, all say that it is a very safe and supportive environment for both boys and girls...the focus is on controlling, disciplining, respecting and bettering oneself (and respecting one's opponent within a controlled competitive fight), and that doesn't leave much room for 'herp melons' or 'derp u fight like a girl'.

Others' mileage may vary of course, but I'd hazard that any instructor that allows that kind of frat boy horseplay culture isn't embracing the true spirit of a martial art.

sheba I mentioned my DD because another poster stated that mothers of daughters would have different stories to tell than mothers of sons.

And that is simply not the case.

However, it is no less or more relevant than the sexism you suffered. It is simply personal experience. One as valid as another.

The fact remains however, that apart from seeing some comments on social media from no doubt a handful of the male cohort that OP's DD has nothing to go on. It may be a completely baseless fear.

Indeed, if the girls routinely came back from this trip upset and harrassed, who would it still be continuing?

My impression is that risk assessment is focused on trips and activities. Safeguarding will look at issues such as sleeping arrangements, bathing and showering.
However, if one of the explicit purposes of the trip is to encourage socialising of two groups who are normally kept apart, there is a limit to how far staff can supervise/police informal social activity, and the way in which the two groups discuss one another when apart.
What would be interesting to know is stuff like when the cameras of mobile phones can and can't be used, and whether there is any guidance about the use of polite, friendly and respectful language.
While many teenagers enjoy residential trips, others will have mixed feelings, and some may not enjoy the experience at all

I don't even see why teenagers should have to shower communally post-swimming. Presumably they have private or at least same-sex changing rooms, so why on earth can't they shower there?

SheGot, no, it is not valid in this scenario. This is about people discussing their teenager daughters' sexual harassment. I suffered it by the shedload at that age and I still get a lot of it now.

I'm not for one second accusing your kids of anything. What I AM saying is that your 'experience' of having a son you like is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Effectively it is this:

Mother 1: My daughter is worried about being harassed on a school trip by the boys there.

Others: Teenage girls do get harassed a lot.

Mother 2: You're being silly because I think my teenage boy, who has no connection with your daughter at all, is lovely. And I think most of his friends, who also have no connection with your daughter, are lovely. Apart from the ones that even I consider to be dickheads. But let's not think about them. Also, I have a daughter! That makes my account of my son and his dickhead friends more relevant to your daughter's fears of harassment at another school!

Sheba: It's not relevant.

Mother 2: Yes it is! My experience is as valid as anyone else's!

I don't really know how else to put it.