To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

[TheoriginalLEM]

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

There are usually several chaplains for a variety of different faiths, and any encounters with them happen in the students' own time.

Fair enough to have an after-school Christian worship club as an optional extra, but that isn't how collective worship in schools is run.

noef, Jasper But this is the nature of universities, students structure a lot of their own day and have a great deal of choice regarding how they study.

Parents, quite naturally make more choices for very small children, they lack the life experience to make a fully informed choice all by themselves. Primary school days are largely structured and supervised. At secondary schools pupils progressively are given more freedom and autonomy.

So it makes sense a parent can make the decision to opt a child in or out of worship at primary. At secondary we had weekly (very very loosely religious) assemblies and no more daily prayers to opt out of. I would advocate every parent makes a choice regarding what provision their child (hopefully including the child's views in this decision) receives at primary and from secondary letting the child choose.

But the assumption is that the worship is there to be opted out of, rather than something the school offers which can be opted into.

Worship during lunchtime or after school, when children who choose not to opt in have playtime or other activities, is fine.

it's not as though there are no churches to provide Christian worship for children.

Jasper if you read my earlier posts of today you will see that I would favour every parent (& child when they are mature enough) to make a choice, over what sort of provision that child receives, or not, regarding collective worship. There would be no opt in, opt out bias. This could be done within the current law. So, if your post was directed at me, you are arguing with the wrong person.

I have also said earlier today why I value collective worship taking place in schools.

Can you explain to me exactly how you envision your stigma-free opt-in/opt out worship provision working?

Would you have a classroom allocated to each faith group? Would the school be obliged to provide worship opportunities for every child of faith, regardless of the religion the followed? What about cults? Is it collective worship if only one child is in that group? Can the school provide for children who want to try a variety of faiths? What will the non-worshipper a do during this time? Who will lead all the mini collective worship groups if there isn't a teacher of the appropriate faith?

I pray with my children. I take them to church. I help out at Sunday School. I really value the secular nature of their school which gives them the opportunity to question the things I teach them and develop their own beliefs.

Jasper The school would ask each parent what worship provision or none they would like their child to receive. Then the school would provide activities, according to their best endeavours, to fit this demographic. This might involve engaging outside help from religious communities, if the school itself felt unable to conduct a particular form of worship. If there weren't sufficient numbers for any particular form of collective worship parents would be informed and an alternative activity chosen. The school would also include collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, as according to the current law. If no child was Christian the school would apply to change their faith status, as according to the current law.

The school would also include collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, as according to the current law

This law would become defunct if the system you propose were set up. If each religious group were individually catered for, there would be no need for this.

But you'd still want it?

Maid what I have described would fit under the current law. The law would have to be changed for no worship of a broadly Christian nature to be provided.

Under the circumstances I have described, though, I would accept no Christian worship taking place, if there was no desire for it amongst the wider school community. The school would have to some agreement with the church, though, if they were Voluntary Aided.

Why not just make it really simple. No worship of any kind at school, apart from as a lunchtime/afterschool activity (assuming there is a demand for it).
Then teachers can actually get on with teaching, and those of us (probably the majority nowadays) don't have to cater for your beliefs.

noef changing the law is not simple though. This is what you are proposing would require.

Maid what I have described would fit under the current law. The law would have to be changed for no worship of a broadly Christian nature to be provided

Sure. But what you want is individualised worship for separate groups, then another layer of Christian worship on top of that.

The purpose of the daily act of worship of a Christian nature is to ensure that pupils have their spiritual needs met? And because we are a nominally Christian country, the message is Christian in nature.

If you are meeting their spiritual needs under a different system, you no longer need this.

It's not that hard to change a law. It's certainly not hard to adapt it to fit the system you describe (abandoning whole school Christian worship in favour of more targetted education).

For clarity: I'm on the side of those who support no acts of worship at schools.

Maid regarding changing the law, you might find Ricardian's posts on this thread informative.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/2478520-Is-being-pubicly-atheist-a-recent-thing-especially-re-collective-worship?pg=21

Personally, I am not in favour of changing the law for reasons I have outlined in my previous posts. It is up to those in favour of change to take the required action to make that change happen.

regarding changing the law, you might find Ricardian's posts on this thread informative.

Some laws are difficult to change. This one wouldn't be. In that thread, the main impetus to keeping the law would be "get along".

I am not in favour of changing the law for reasons I have outlined in my previous posts

Because it favours you and yours?

i would far prefer to keep worship out of schools. Perhaps, for those parents who feel that a daily act of worship is vital, local churches could offer an after school worship session and provide transport? I really don't see how it is the schools business. Pupils from minority religions would be unable to access adults able to lead the act of worship, pupils without religion wouldn't want an act of worship, and if there's still going to be compulsory Christian worship, it just means a double dose of Christianity for everyone else.

Could we not just scrap it all, and have a daily time of silent contemplation which could be used for spiritual reflection, philosophical thought or daydreaming as each child sees fit?

Maid I could say the same regarding your reasons to change the law.

Jasper equally I can see how 'silent reflection' would fit right in very well with your 'non credal' spiritual beliefs.

I chose silent reflection because it was what the chaplains at my university tended to do when they wanted to hold an event that was truly inclusive.

I'd be happy with nothing at all, and prayers at home and at church, but it is nice for children to have some time of being together where they really are all able to be part of things. Or singing non-religious songs might be nice. My children's school does whole school non religious singing every week, which I like. I can't think of anything else that wouldn't exclude chunks of children.

Jasper I think I have a different view of inclusiveness to you. I regard being 'truly inclusive' as accepting and catering for diversity through differentiation of provision. Homogeneous provision is not truly inclusive, as it does not reflect diversity, it merely skirts around diversity of need by providing less overall content to each individual.

But the thing Is that that has NEVER been differentiation of provision within schools, which is why people want to get rid of it, and your proposal, by retaining the collective worship of a broadly Christian nature, still doesn't provide that, as it is privileging Christianity over other religions and those with no religion.

Children from minority faiths will never be able to have individual provision at school when they already have to travel long distances to get to their normal place of worship.

Atheist children don't get individual provision when worship is part of the school day.

What about different groupings of Christians? Do they have to compromise and find common ground, too, or will the individual provision have separate groupings for different branches of Christianity? And about those children whose families hold beliefs which impinge if the rights of others. Should schools provide worship in which female subservience is taken for granted, or homosexuality is condemned, or children are told to look down on other groups of pupils?

If you want religious instruction and worship tailored to the beliefs of your child, then there already exists a specialist in providing that, which is within your own faith community. There is no need for schools to provide the same service, and excellent reasons for them not too.

Maybe more differentiation is what would make things fairer?

Atheist children are already allowed to opt out of worship, they need to be supervised and there is alternative activity offered. This is individual provision.

Faith communities can liase with schools (including minorities), as they do currently, worship is usually conducted through joint provision.

No,what would make things fairer is to keep worship out of school all together, so no one has to opt out or go off into little groups. The whole idea is absurd.

Indeed. There is already expert individual provision for worship and religious instruction provided within faith communities for those who want it.

Making time for worship as a requirement of the school day isn't inclusive by your definition anyway, because it doesn't provide for the many many pupils for whom the requirement is a secular education.

For me it's all bollocks.

What pushes this more for me is the more Christian / involved in church people seem to be. The more two faced and less Christian they are.

When looking at organised religion of all faiths seems to be a way of making people/regilious body rich and stopping the peasants from revolting.

All I have seen is lots of reasons why it's all bollocks. So until something changes that's my view.

No,what would make things fairer is to keep worship out of school all together, so no one has to opt out or go off into little groups. The whole idea is absurd.

noef So you don't view giving parents (& children at an appropriate age) choice over what worship provision children receive in school? You'd rather make autocratic choice for everyone.....yet you still complain about our current law which, at least, has a facility for choice.

Jasper by offering choice, a secular education is available for those who chose it. People can chose it now for their children, under the current law. What they cannot do, under the current law, is chose a secular education for other people's children.

capsium you appear to be confused between 'education' and 'worship'. They are 2 seperate things. Hence schools are for education, and places of worship (churches, mosques, etc) are for worship. There's no need for any sort of worship as part of the school day, any more than it should be part of the normal day in shops, offices, hospitals, factories, etc.
If you feel the need for your children to worship or pray during the day then they can do it at home, in your place of worship, or even in their own heads. Why the need to involve people who have no interest in your religious beliefs and practices?