To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

[TheoriginalLEM]

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

I suspected that you would be unhappy with true inclusiveness somehow, that is an inclusiveness that accepts and caters for diversity, rather than an enforced homogeneity.

how so? My preference is that state schools are open to all and prefer no one. Making worship a school activity does nothing to contribute to that, and only alienates those that don't want to partake in worship. Schools should be totally welcoming to Christians, support Christian clubs (if they have provision for clubs), and even celebrate Christian holidays (when appropriate, and provide the same provision for other religions).

I fail to see what's unwelcoming about that. Where I draw the line is allowing Christians to have Christian prayer being a school activity because that excludes people.

I also fail to see what this has to do with pupils with SEN. Why would I not want to have provision for them? I am against homogeneity. I am also against making people feel like they must pray to someone's god to feel included.

You have a place for that. I don't feel the need to go to your church and make everyone participate in a hindu prayer.

red the link to SEN was by way of analogy to out my point more starkly.

This is, in one way, same issue, you are indicating you would everyone to join together and do the same thing but this has to be in a way which is non religious because there might be some atheists present. You are indicating you would like to remove the provision for collective worship in schools. You have indicated you don't agree with children splitting off from a whole school assembly for worship and/or non worship activities that is providing differentiated provision.

In the same way some schools expect to provide children with SENs with the same provision as anyone else, that is not really differentiated, but with the additional support of a TA to manage the impact (resulting behaviours) of their unmet needs upon other students. That is there is an expectation that provision should be homogeneous.

Put not out. Typo.

Your analogy is broken.

A school is a learning and educational environment. Thus, SEN issues need to be catered to because education is point of a school. Religious worship is neither the point of a school, nor even part of its natural remit. Schools, teachers and HTs should not be encumbered with these goals and events. They are not trained chaplains, reverends or Imams, as you admit outsiders need to be brought in to achieve this. Even here in the U, it's shoehorned into a school environment against sizeable protest.

Red who are you to say no learning takes place within religious worship?

The purpose of education is to prepare children for adult life in the society they live in. For this reason schools can be said to be microcosms of society. Collective worship of God exists in our society. Schools are free to engage people with religious training according to their need.

Added to this, according to the present law, schools should be 'encumbered with these goals and events' by law.

Either way, my analogy stands, since an analogy is a comparison for the purpose of clarification, there only has to be similarities, the situations do not have to be the same in every respect.

"A comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification:
an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies
[MASS NOUN]: he interprets logical functions by analogy with machines
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.1A correspondence or partial similarity:
the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia" (OED)

who are you to say no learning takes place within religious worship?

I am actually in the education biz. I have not seen a single study where it was concluded that religious worship is a necessary part of a good educational program, nor even a desirable part.

Collective worship exists in society, but so does sky diving. The analogy being that of course everyone should be taught about things that exist in society, but most things are not made as participatory events in schools because schools aren't the appropriate venue for all things. School is the appropriate venue for learning about things.

Any good analogy doesn't break in a critical place. Any two things have similarities, but if an analogy is a good one those similarities need to be in the salient places.

I'm not really convinced that Christians who are keen on the current status quo would really be happy if a different religion was the one being promoted.

Imagine the only state school in your area was a Wiccan school, where pagan values were the foundation of the school's ethos. Each classroom would have an altar, with figures of a goddess and horned god. Each morning the children, from reception onwards, would gather in the sacred circle in the school grounds and welcome the elements into the circle and recite the Charge of the Goddess. One a week, a high priest and priestess from the local community would come in and lead a more formal ritual, casting spells to help with problems concerning the school community. At every meal, the teacher would thank the Lord and Lady and the elements of Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit which have given them their food, and the children would answer "blessed be".

The children would work really hard, making costumes, learning songs and acting roles for the school spiral dance at Saimhain, which would be led by the high priestess for. The local community. Parents and governors and key local figures would join in. There would be a similar flurry of activity at Beltane. Parents would be free to refuse to let their children participate during these activities, and those children could go to the library for some quiet reading time while those events were going on.

The teachers would be very respectful of the beliefs of others, and would be careful always to preface stories with "witches believe", and would have a word with any child who drew a caricature of a Christian priest burning witches and make clear that that was unacceptable behaviour, and there might even be a lesson covering Abramic myths in religious studies classes.

If someone from the family of one of the schoolchildren was facing a serious illness or bereavement, the high priestess would call round and kindly offer to cast a spell to help them in their time of trouble, and invite them to attend a meeting of the local coven if they might find it a source of help and support.

A select group of priestesses would also sit in parliament, where would further promote the pagan values which are such a key part of our national identity.

Amazing post Jasper.

I would add the following. School worship is not there as a microcosm of grown up society.

I work in a place where there is absolutely no daily collective worship. There is no time set aside for spirituality. The hours are much longer than school hours.

I would be astonished if any more than a tiny minority of people work somewhere where there actually IS any collective worship...whether or not you can opt out of it....in fact the majority of adults exposed to this are teachers!

IF schools mimicked the real world there would be NO collective worship.

Sounds a bit like Steiner

So the message from the real world is by all means have your religion but exercise it on your own time.

red I don't believe my analogy does break in the 'salient places'. I stand by it.

It was a point about inclusiveness catering for diversity and not enforcing homogeneity. Homogeneous v. differentiated provision, is what I was making my point about, regarding being truly inclusive.

The analogy illustrates an example of inclusive, differentiated, provision (splitting off for the collective worship / non worship activities) and is contrasted with an example of homogeneous provision (where no worship may take place because there may be some atheists present). This is then compared to the homogenous provision, that sometimes happens when SENs have been identified, which, by their very nature, require inclusive but differentiated provision.

Regarding extreme sports such as skydiving, schools often do offer opportunities for sports which could be considered fairly extreme. Our local school, from memory, has had overseas climbing and trekking trips, which would have included some fairly extreme conditions. However I do not think sky diving is as prevalent as religious worship, so provision for this is quite naturally rarer.

Jasper your model of collective worship in schools is not the one I would propose or the one which the current law supports. The current law has a facility, at least for opting out of collective worship, the worship elements most often occur at one end of an assembly which means those opting out can leave beforehand.

capsium can I take you do in fact work somewhere that engages in daily collective worship then?

So the message from the real world is by all means have your religion but exercise it on your own time.

Which bit of my time is not my own?

Ice yes, although, I work in my home. Collective worship does take place here.

Jasper- as a Catholic i actually think your description of a school day sounds fantastic fun! id have no issue with it although its abit pie in the sky.

the choice would more likely be between a muslim and Catholic school. I would also have no issue with my dd learning about Islam.

maybe that is because my personal belief is in one God but different religions rather than different Gods.

I like that there is a spiritual aspect to dd's learning. It just happens to be Catholic.

capsium do you accept that the vast majority of adults do not have to attend or opt out of collective worship during their working day because their places of work do not hold collective worship?

Do you accept that forcing children to either opt out of or attend daily collective worship is completely out of line with the adult world of work?

Have you ever worked out of the home in paid employment that wasn't a church where staff were all required to take part in a collective worship unless they excluded themselves from that act?

I don't believe my analogy does break in the 'salient places'. I stand by it.

I said precisely where it did. educational institutions should cater to the educational diversity of students because that's their raison d'etre. That's the purpose of a school. They should, in addition, be welcoming to people from all backgrounds, but should not specifically cater to their every need, because that's not the purpose of a school (key here is the purpose of a school).

If not, why stop at worship? Why not provide hindu shrines?

one which the current law supports.

the law is plainly on your side. The question isn't whether the law mandates collective christian worship, but whether it ought to.

I'm not really convinced that Christians who are keen on the current status quo would really be happy if a different religion was the one being promoted.

why would you be convinced of this? of course they wouldn't be happy. Take a group with special privileges, remove those privileges and give them to someone else. Of course the first group won't be happy.

thelem but do you draw a line between 'learning about' and 'practising'?

Because I would have no issue with learning about religion...but I have one with practising religion in schools.

Would you be happy to have your children participate in a pagan rite?

because no matter how you slice it, saying the lords prayer is practising a christian rite....not learning about christianity

Do you accept that forcing children to either opt out of or attend daily collective worship is completely out of line with the adult world of work?

My impression is that all of this is accepted. It's a question of privilege and people like privilege.

All I can say is that I am massively grateful there is no such thing as faith universities.

I wonder how our students cope with not starting each day of their university courses with an act of collective worship...must really impact their ability to learn...or maybe they just do what ever they feel they need before they turn up?!?

do you accept that the vast majority of adults do not have to attend or opt out of collective worship during their working day because their places of work do not hold collective worship?

Depends on how you define worship. I have come across many non religious dogmatic views and the overt naming of non religious books, written policies and rule books as 'bibles'. Certain schools of thought have been regarded 'on high' and put at the centre of the workplace ethos. If a person held with alternative views it would have been regarded as somewhat shocking.

All I can say is that I am massively grateful there is no such thing as faith universities.

I wonder how our students cope with not starting each day of their university courses with an act of collective worship...must really impact their ability to learn...or maybe they just do what ever they feel they need before they turn up?!?

Many universities have a chaplain and regular services held on campus.

Yes capsium. For people that want them. They can go and seek them out if they want, they don't have them foisted on them.