To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

[TheoriginalLEM]

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

You can't chose to believe, you do or you don't. I would love to believe there is a god, as the alternative of dying and just being dead is not comforting to me. It would be lovely to think someone watches over everyone protecting them.

Unfortunately I don't believe, I can't as all my brain says is "dnt be so bloody stupid, of course there is no god".

Which one of the gods are you not choosing to believe in? Yahweh? Thor? Apollo? Vishnu? Ra? There are plenty to 'choose' from.

So given the massive consensus on this thread is that it isn't a choice to have faith or not....why does it make sense to discriminate against people on the basis of having faith or not?

How can it be fair and proper that my DD cannot go to the school opposite us due to my lack of faith in god - which I had absolutely no choice in?

Why would you choose to send your child to a school that teaches a faith you don't believe in, just because its opposite to you? Just the same as why would someone of faith choose to send their child to a school that doesn't teach a faith just because it was opposite to them? I don't think its discrimination.

Thelem It supremely does not matter why I would chose that. Maybe its the only school for miles...maybe that's where all her friends will go...maybe it has the best ofstead rating, maybe as I know faith isn't catching it doesn't matter what religion is taught!

The point is that it is my choice and I am being denied it over a genetic difference as unavoidable for me as race or homosexuality.

Do you think that is right?

Religion is attractive in times of chaos, famine and war. As this is the norm for 95% of humanity, it isn't going away.

The Abrahamic faiths actually quite good for dealing with bad times: they restrain the worst aspects of people, and provide basic rules for property, marriage and child rearing. Given that they banned infanticide, temple prostition and human sacrifice, they were pretty attractive in the Classical period. Got a bit shitty later, but on the whole they were better than nothing.

Is it also not fact that faith schools are bound to take a percentage of children who don't have a religion and that the next critereon to meet would be distance from the school?

But i don't want this turned into a debate about schools, it was just a question i was asking myself and I have received some interesting answers.

I don't believe in any God, though I do appreciate some facets of many religions.
It makes me laugh when Mormons or other evangelicals try to convert me because I can't understand how they can possibly think I'm going to suddenly believe based on them saying something about how comforting they find their beliefs.

thelem not according to the admissions document I read for our local school....but you know as a society we have a problem with extremism and indoctrination so it makes perfect sense to segregate education by religion I'm sure!

I think the issue of religious discrimination (not only in schools obviously) is pretty relevant to the discussion around religion being viewed as a choice. It is far more acceptable to discriminate over things people choose to do than those they have no choice over!

"Why would you choose to send your child to a school that teaches a faith you don't believe in, just because its opposite to you?"

I am an atheist. My children go to a Catholic school. It was my choice and I was allowed to send them there. They don't have to take in a certain percentage of non faith children, there is an order of 8 criteria and you go down the list. It isn't oversubscribed, it is undersubscribed so getting in was never a problem. Their education is more important than my lack of religious beliefs. The other local schools are rough and awful.

Personally I believe that organised religion is not much different than a cult and no better than brain washing. I went to a C of E school and believed because that's what we were told. However my family are as unreligious as they come so there came a day when I just didn't believe it. In a way I'd like to. I find the religious people are know seem to be part of a real community, they seem happier and more at peace with things (probably because they believe that it is all out of their control) but try as I might, I cannot believe in a mythical sky fairy (read that on here and loved it). I don't necessarily believe that death is the end but it doesn't have to mean there is something religious behind it.

It doesn't make sense to me. I also believe that some of the more devout religious people I know are fairly hypocritical and think themselves superior because they have the answers. Well no they don't, they just think they do. It also annoys me that every one who is of a different religion is convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong which is what makes them appear superior.

A friend of mine is a devout Catholic, I remember hearing her DD tell her that she didn't want to be Catholic anymore (she goes to church every Sunday and makes the DCs go, would only consider a Catholic school etc) and my friend was horrified and told her that she wasn't allowed and she had to be Catholic and go to church. Just because that's what she believed. My DS has mentioned before about becoming Catholic (because it is kind of drummed in at school) and I said he will be free to make that choice as an adult but not now as I would have to get baptised in order for my child to be baptised, which isn't going to happen. He has since gone off the idea and says he doesn't believe in God, which given how much the school is focused on religion, I am surprised that what I think affects him more. I have only ever said "your school teaches this as that's what they believe but everyone is different and at home we don't believe it, other people follow other religions" so I haven't gone on about how religion is evil and he shouldn't believe it but he has chosen himself to think like we do rather than what the school do. I have also told him he has to respect what the school teaches and he isn't to go in saying he doesn't believe in God. I believe is respecting other people beliefs but I have found that religious people don't always do this. However I find that the Catholic school is brilliant, there is a real sense of community and my friend who worked in a local shop said she could always tell the difference in the behaviour and manners of the children at the Catholic school to the behaviour and manners of the children who go to the 2 local rough schools. I do think part of this is down to the religious aspect but that doesn't mean we need to believe in God to gain that same sense of community, respect and discipline.

That is a fair point icebeing. I don;'t go to church and neither does DD but I am thankful that she goes to a Catholic school for all of the reasons Crapbag has mentioned. Why those values aren't taught, or don't appear to be so strong in other schools is a puzzle to me and quite sad.

I think about this sometimes, how much is choice and how much is due to culture/environment.

I'm Catholic and I believe in God but I'm also Italian so Catholicism is culturally my 'default setting'.

Interestingly, I don't know a single Italian person who describes themselves as an atheist - all the Italian people I know who decided they disagreed with the Catholic church have become buddhists and mainly practising ones at that (I know buddhists don't believe in God but my friends are still 'spiritual' if that makes sense)...I wonder if they like me are just so used to the rhythm and ritual of religion.

Crapbag I think it's important to realise that many very devout people believe that people who don't believe as they do will end up in hell - not a fate you would wish for your beloved child. They have a strong motive for trying to compel their children to believe, and for trying to keep them away fro outside influences that might challenge their faith. That's why anyone in a fundamentalist community who loses their faith will find themselves suddenly ostracised, despite the ostensible Christian message of "love your neighbour".

Contrary to what most of the other people have said on this thread, I think it is possible that actively choose beliefs and I am a Christian.

I do aim to actively do this. As the way I do this, 2 Corinthians 10:5 explains here,

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" (KJV)

I know a lot of people would criticise this because of the cognitive dissonance it can involve. However, I think a certain amount of cognitive dissonance is healthy, simply because we do not know everything there is to know. We have to be able to develop the capacity to hold to apparently conflicting ideas in mind, without dismissing one of them prematurely, in order to find where, contextually, each applies and the relationship between the two.

That people can^ actively choose beliefs. Typo omission.

It's a choice.
My Mother and Father met at a church group. All through their dating years they went and worshiped together.
I remember when my brother and I were small we both went to Sunday school while our parents went to church.
In later years both my Mother and Father were very active within their church, often sacrificing their family for church commitments.
My Mother has now past away but my Father still remains a very active church goer.

I'm agnostic at best, atheist at the worst.

So, I certainly did not inherit any form of belief from my parents, I made my own mind up and made a choice.

Religion through the ages is responsible for many atrocities, if there really were a god/gods then they would not allow this to happen.
I'd rather not be part of any of it!

It depresses me that anyone, least of all an atheist, is impressed by the "values" of a Catholic school and thinks that it's because of the religion that children behave well.

Has it come to that? Lie to children so they'll behave?

And what are these "values". That being gay, using contraception, terminating a pregnancy and getting divorced are all sinful, but don't worry, God still loves you if you sin, you just need to say sorry. So, no harm done.

Personally, I have too much respect for any child of mine to make them have lunch in a room that has a bloodied, tortured corpse hanging off the wall.

And actually, Crapbag - I'd like to challenge you to name one "value" that this school of your childrens provides that could not equally be delivered by a secular, non-religious school.

If it's anything God related, then you are in favour of lying to kids.

If it's not, then what exactly is your point and how does the religiousness of the school make the slightest difference?

If it's anything God related, then you are in favour of lying to kids.

If this is said in relation to Christianity, I think you misunderstand Christianity. The Christian Faith is quite open about the fact it involves beliefs and faith. The only lie which can be said concerning a belief is a personal one, if someone says they believe something they don't. No person can claim to know exactly what another person believes either, they can only their perception of what another person has told them...

^ only report. Typo omission.

I guess the 'Christian' values of compassion and tolerance won't be in the list of things my local school would provide as their admissions policy is in direct contradiction with them....

I don't see the presence of religion in a school as a major issue because I went to church 3 times a week till I left home for uni and it totally failed to stick.

I do see problems with it - in terms of embedded misogynistic ideology and intolerance...but I also see the positives of mainly middle class parents, and great Ofsted etc.

And to be honest you only have to turn on the computer or TV to have both misogynistic ideology and intolerance flood out in any case. No matter what I do my DD will be exposed to that!

Belief/lack thereof - not a choice. I don't see how you can choose what you believe. You can choose certain behaviours consistent with a belief, you can recognise that those behaviours may be more appropriate than those your true belief would dictate, but you can't stop your head/heart thinking and feeling what it does.

Religious following - ostensibly a choice but heavily influenced by your environment, sometimes to the point where the concept of choice about it is anathema.

kesstral that's a really good point actually and I'd never thought of it that way. As I don't believe in heaven or hell it just doesn't occur to me that others worry about their loved ones not going there.

apricot, my local non religious schools are awful. I walk past one to get to DCs school. The difference in the children and parents is huge. It is quite obvious and it may not be popular but they are rough. The other nearby non religious school has terrible results and I've heard by word of mouth about what a terrible school it is. There was no way my DCs were going to either. It may well be that some parents aren't particularly bothered and just send their DCs to the local school and the ones that take a more active role will think carefully and send their children to a school that is known to be better which is why there is such a difference but I don't think it is that simple.

"Caring, forgiving and valuing ourselves and others
• Learning to make the most of all our gifts and talents
• Living with hope and trust
So that we can all enjoy our lives as we strive together for excellence "

The values that I like about my DCs school.

This is not the impression I get from the other schools nearby. There are other great non religious schools in my city, I just don't live near them.

but you can't stop your head/heart thinking and feeling what it does.

Don't you believe it is possible to direct your conscious thoughts, maid?

Don't you believe it is possible to direct your conscious thoughts, maid?

Can you clarify?

Are you asking whether I think you can engender belief by following particular thought processes?