To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

[TheoriginalLEM]

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

I don't do this for fear of stigmatizing my child.

If you seriously thought collective worship at school would damage your child, you would remove them regardless. You might seek to reduce that stigma by engaging other parents to see if they were prepared to remove their children, safety in numbers and all that. If you felt as strongly, as some of the sentiment indicated on these boards, your actions would follow suit.

My DC has, in the past, been identified as having some SENs. By catering to additional needs there is always the danger that the differentiated treatment will single a child out. However the priority is that their needs are catered for, so much effort is spent on ensuring this is done in the best way possible.

I would be very happy indeed for all state education in the UK to be completely secular, with no faith schools and no act of worship, with a properly academic, non-proselytising religious studies on the same level as other humanities, with it being compulsory for long enough for children to be able to study literature, history or history of art without having to do an additional crash course in religion at the same time.

Plenty of religious people feel the same way. I send my children to the most secular local school available and its inclusive communities values are something valued by all the parents there, from a variety of religions and none.

Some theists like to mix church and state, but plenty don't.

If you seriously thought collective worship at school would damage your child, you would remove them regardless. You might seek to reduce that stigma by engaging other parents to see if they were prepared to remove their children, safety in numbers and all that. If you felt as strongly, as some of the sentiment indicated on these boards, your actions would follow suit.

yup. that's the answer when someone is trying to use the state to push their religion on you. Face the stigma, or lump it. you are clearly happy putting other parents in that position.

red I am not putting parents in any position, personally. I didn't create the law.

As I have stated before, many times, in other threads, I am in favour of every parent making a choice over what collective worship provision or non, their child receives and that child making their own choice, once they are at Secondary School. This way there is no argument regarding who opts in or out. This could be done within the current law. This way a school can most effectively cater to the needs of the school community. This point, is nearly always, conveniently, forgotten or dismissed in these threads, effectively making a straw man of my position.

I do, however, value the provision of worship in schools though and don't wish to remove this.

Would you value the provision of worship if it didn't match your religion though?

Ice I would accept it. I would value what help and comfort to others it provided. I would value the freedom to opt out of provision, as I (or my child at an appropriate age) felt necessary, the right to choose. I would value the school that was able to do this in a non discrimatory non-stigmatising and fair manner. I would value a school that could effectively cater for different and diverse needs.

but where is the need to have worship at school at all? You can worship at home and anywhere else.

Why do it at school where you know for a fact their will be people for whom it is a problem?

Ice Because schools are a microcosm of our society and society caters to the spiritual needs of people throughout the day.

Children spend a lot of their time at school and increasingly a lot of time outside of school doing school work. I value time being put aside for spiritual needs. Educationalists also have much to input over how to put forward a spiritual message in a way which children can understand and is accessible to them.

So I value this provision and don't wish for it to be removed but I would support making parental (and child) choice, over what provision a child does or does not receive, a fair one.

I am not putting parents in any position, personally. I didn't create the law.

I never accused you of creating the law. But you obviously support it.

As I have stated before, many times, in other threads, I am in favour of every parent making a choice over what collective worship provision or non, their child receives and that child making their own choice, once they are at Secondary School. This way there is no argument regarding who opts in or out. This could be done within the current law.

yes, of course. You aren't as bad as members of ISIS, who want push their religion on people through violence. Your view is clearly preferable to that. But you are happy for parents to have a choice as long as your choice is the default one, where others are either inconvenienced by opting out or stigmatized by it. This for an activity for which school is not the appropriate venue.

I do, however, value the provision of worship in schools though and don't wish to remove this.

yes, your position is clear. You like the status quo as it benefits members of your religion. you are not for equal provision, or equality of religions under the law. Your religion gets special status, and you support that. Very clear, and unsurprising. People who benefit from unjust laws are their strongest supporters.

Because schools are a microcosm of our society and society caters to the spiritual needs of people throughout the day.

is this in the magna carta?

Children spend a lot of their time at school and increasingly a lot of time outside of school doing school work. I value time being put aside for spiritual needs.

Right. And unlike secularists, you feel that YOUR way should be done in schools, and not others. every secularist will defend your right to value time for spiritual needs and meet them. The trouble is you want to do it on everyone else's time.

Do you actually want to ban people from sharing their beliefs? How would you propose to impose this?

this would be rather great but I agree not exactly achievable. In the meantime perhaps those of a religious persuasion could just stick to doing it in their many churches, then people who want it can go to them to seek it out.

But you are happy for parents to have a choice as long as your choice is the default one, where others are either inconvenienced by opting out or stigmatized by it.

red I said I was in favour of every parent (and child at the appropriate age) making a choice regarding collective worship. That is there being no default. Further to this I would also be OK of other forms of collective worship, as provided by leaders of other faiths, being made available in schools.

I have said I would like the removal of stigmatisation but am in favour of catering to a diversity of different needs.

I get the feeling my points, are, yet again, being ignored.

part of Christian belief includes the belief that God resides with and in those that believer in Him

So god is a leprechaun?

Abe

Sorry, not able to keep my beliefs within a church building only. It is quite an impossibility since 'church' also is a term for Christian believers as a group, so in effect I am, part of, the church. Church goes with me. So wherever I share my Christian beliefs there is church.

Maid

I don't believe God is a leprechaun but I understand your thinking. God is a spirit. According to folk belief, a leprechaun could be considered a spiritual, non mortal / supernatural being. But a leprechaun (as described in folklore) and God are different in nature and character.

I was just (tongue in cheek) referring to your earlier comments about leprechauns - that they are evoked in the mind of those who believe, and how those people then live their lives is the "leprechaun".

I said I was in favour of every parent (and child at the appropriate age) making a choice regarding collective worship. That is there being no default. Further to this I would also be OK of other forms of collective worship, as provided by leaders of other faiths, being made available in schools.

So, will all have the same space and time in school assemblies? That's really a lot of time, isn't it?

your more inclusive stance, though somewhat welcome, still makes worship a school activity and therefore necessarily excludes atheists, for what is again an activity not appropriate for schools (unless of course you are also allowing seminars on Nietzshe and why "god is dead"). there is a wonderful place called "church" where collective worship is not only welcome, but the main activity. That's the place where collective worship is appropriate. Participation in church is 100% voluntary, so you won't be subjecting anyone to collective worship who doesn't want it.

"If you seriously thought collective worship at school would damage your child, you would remove them regardless. "

I am waiting to see how bad the collective worship is before I withdraw my son. Got to give the school a chance to prove they are not spouting bollox before I take him out.

However, what really irks me is this idea that if I keep them in but tell my child that what they are being told is untrue, lies, made up, bollox then I am somehow indoctrinating them against religion.

Maid yes, I get your point, it was part of the point I was making earlier / have made before.

This is the way I believe things of a spiritual nature can work. The spirit effectively being an agent that can manifest into something physical through affecting people's minds and actions.

Language reflects this, for example, Zeitgeist, realise (in the sense of make real) and aghast. Jesus describes His word as being 'Spirit'.

red there are lots of rooms in schools for people to gather in...Whole school assembly can be non religious with children splitting off into various groups for various religious worship and non religious activities.

there are lots of rooms in schools for people to gather in...Whole school assembly can be non religious with children splitting off into various groups for various religious worship and non religious activities.

why are schools doing this instead of parents on the weekend? So, now the whole school needs to splinter and separate so that you can have your collective worship on school time? Again, the time and place for this activity is church. There, the splitting off has taken place and we don't waste schools' time and HT's efforts on this.

the best thing parents can do is make it clear that they want their children to attend assemblies but not to take part in the act of worship. Schools then have to modify their assemblies to accommodate the non religious (and can provide 'spiritual' and moral guidance in that part as you don't need religion to do this) and then get the ones who want to pray to do it separately.

DS has been in school already for almost half a term and thankfully has not mentioned God once.

red I suspected that you would be unhappy with true inclusiveness somehow, that is an inclusiveness that accepts and caters for diversity, rather than an enforced homogeneity.

This saddens me, not only regarding inclusivity of religious worship within schools but inclusivity in the more general sense. When my DC was identified as having some SENs it amazed me how unwilling some were to make even reasonable adjustments, even in light of the significant funding my DC received because they could not be expected to do that for every child...