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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

253 replies

TheoriginalLEM · 12/10/2015 21:42

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

OP posts:
blankblink · 14/10/2015 02:25

Interesting thread, good to see different viewpoints.

Perhaps belief is based on personal experience? Here's a scientist, someone who had no experience of "the divine" for want of better terminology, so they did not believe in it, then they experienced it and now they believe in it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html

AbeSaidYes · 14/10/2015 10:04

"I don't think people necessarily just accept everything they are taught as it it taught. We can decide whether to accept, reject or further consider new information. "

I personally think that if we teach small children that there is such a thing as a god and a person who died for our sins or whatever the religious belief is, then they suck it in as truth until they get to an age where they are able to break away from it if they decide it's all mumbo-jumbo. Sadly, as others have said, they are often riddled with guilt and fear about it.

I think it's awful that the status quo in so many small children's lives is that they have to be fed this kind of story and then reject it later if they want to. That's why I am grateful I didn't have anything to reject in the first place because I wasn't raised with any kind of religion and was left to be without religion just as I was the day I was born.

capsium · 14/10/2015 10:21

Abe well, as I have said your view of children, accepting what they are told automatically as truth, conflicts with my own personal experiences, of what I remember being like as a child. I quite vividly remember instances of disagreeing with what adults told me, I was not a wholly obedient child. I did believe in God though.

noeffingidea · 14/10/2015 10:23

Good post Abe. That connects with my experiences.
I was raised in a religious home. While I never truly believed myself and therefore never had to do the 'soul searching' that some people do I still used to worry about things like 'what if hell is true'. I can't say that being raised in a religion didn't affect me at all, even though I didn't really believe it.
I've brought my children up the way you were brought up - religion was simply a non factor to them, just something they learnt about at school, the same way that they learnt about any other subject.

I've got to add here (because they seem to go hand in hand IMO) I also don't believe in ghosts, horoscopes or anything else that could be described as 'woo'. Everything has a scientific explanation, though of course we don't know them all yet (we're making good progress though). Well, I did tell my kids about Santa Claus, but only in a fun way until they were 7 or 8.

capsium · 14/10/2015 10:45

I have found huge comfort in God, as a child and an adult. As a child I was an avid fan of nursery rhymes, folklore and fairy tales, I loved these stories, songs and rhymes...was always asking for more. However nursery rhymes, folk and fairy tales had a knock on effect of creating many fears for me, I did not wholly believe them, I knew they were stories but was disturbed by them, especially at night. Believing in God's protection helped.

AbeSaidYes · 14/10/2015 11:44

I found fairy tales scary - most of the good ones are written that way deliberately.
I didn't need any kind of god to comfort me as I knew it was just a story in a book and not true. My parents didn't encourage me to believe that everything I read in a fairy tale was true.

capsium · 14/10/2015 12:24

There are truths in fairy and folk tales though. These truths are part of what I found disturbing. For example, the little match girl dies of starvation and none helps her, red riding hood was threatened by a predatory figure dressed up to look like someone she knew.

I knew they were stories but was still moved by their disturbing elements.

capsium · 14/10/2015 12:29

...when I started learning more of the facts of history that scared me too. The news scared me, stories of war and crime etc.

JasperDamerel · 14/10/2015 12:32

I'm sort of the opposite of noeffingidea, in that I was raised in an atheist household, but pretty much always believed in God, in the way that is being talked about in this thread.

I've noticed here that what a lot of the "believers" describe isn't belief in the tenets of a particular religion, but a deep-seated awareness of a divine presence, and this is certainly my experience. I have at various times in my life considered myself to be an atheist and a theist, but my awareness of that presence has always been there. The difference to me is how I interpret the presence - as an atheist, I convince tell myself that the presence is a figment of my imagination, and that my prayers are talking to myself (I make a fairly lousy atheist what with the praying and the divine presence etc) and when I have followed a religion I have felt more able to acknowledge the presence, and felt more honest about what I experience, but also very aware of how much religion is a human construction, and am not really comfortable with that either.
I am happy now, following a non credal religion and worshipping with people who describe themselves variously as atheist, agnostic, theist Christan and sometimes Pagan or Buddhist.

So in my case, I have a choice about how I frame my belief, but that ultimate belief itself seems pretty deep seated and hard to shake off.

AbeSaidYes · 14/10/2015 12:47

All those things scare me too.

Having a faith in god doesn't make those things go away.

capsium · 14/10/2015 13:00

Abe I didn't say it did. What I said was that I find my belief in God to be a comfort.

AbeSaidYes · 14/10/2015 13:20

so believing in god's protection helps you deal with all the war and famine and injustice in the world which is nice, for you.

personally I don't think faith in a made up story would do that for me.

capsium · 14/10/2015 13:36

Abe yes, because it gives me (and many many others) hope. Belief can be the motivator which enables people to get involved to help alleviate suffering. Without hope, actions and encouragement can seem too dangerous or futile.

I'm not saying people who don't have the same beliefs/faith as me cannot be hopeful or motivated to help. I'm just saying I find a hope and strength through my faith.

capsium · 14/10/2015 13:38

Abe and obviously I don't believe the Christian Faith is a just 'made up story'....

PacificMouse · 14/10/2015 13:50

Abe I think people experience re faith and believing in god can be very different from one person to the other.
I know fur example someone who is a JW. She brought up get dcs in that faith but the mart two children have clearly moved on from that and don't abide by these rules.
And having being brought up by parents who were atheists, I have my own faith.

To be honest,if we go down the route that belief is a choice and therefore can be influenced by parents, then it's both the belief of a god or the belief there are no such thing as a god that can be taught to children.
I dont believe that one of these situation is better or worse than the other.

For me,earning and becoming a Buddhist has givens sense of direction tha I didn't have before. It's not comfort against bad things more than the knowledge I of where I want to go and what I'm aiming at.
I believe it made me a better person.

DrasticAction · 14/10/2015 14:14

its not a choice if your are brought up and in docrinated from dot,only sent to schools and allowed to mix wit people who follow same.

I met DD of devout parents, did sunday school,. everything she did and said came back to god, it was awful to witness.

KittyandTeal · 14/10/2015 14:20

I don't think so.

I would love to believe in God, I'd love to think there was an unknown reason for us loosing our dd2 and that she is in heaven as an angel.

However, whenever I think about it I draw a blank, like I hit a wall. I simply cannot believe in any of it.

Strangely as a result I have moved more towards science and read much more science based stuff.

I remember when we first lost dd2 I said to my counsellor that I wish I could believe in god.

AbeSaidYes · 14/10/2015 14:25

"then it's both the belief of a god or the belief there are no such thing as a god that can be taught to children."

not believing in something isn't a belief.

That aside - what I am advocating is a situation where children are left free of any influence so they remain without religion like the day they were born. NOT that people actively turn them against religion, because to do that would mean having to mention religion/belief in god/faith in the first place which defeats the object.

capsium · 14/10/2015 14:37

Abe how would what you are advocating work practically for religious parents? Would they not be allowed to take their children to church/other place of worship, or pray in front of them at home or share their beliefs with them? What about sharing non religious i.e. cultural beliefs?

We don't bring our children up in a vacuum, they are part of our society, part of culture.

How do you propose enforcing what you are advocating?

capsium · 14/10/2015 14:45

Kitty Flowers Sorry for your loss. I do appreciate deep emotional hurt can absolutely 'knock us for six' and understand your sentiment.

PacificMouse · 14/10/2015 14:52

Thinking that there is no God is a belief though. Just as thinking that there is a god.

Tbh I have seen children been indoctrinated by parents about God. I've also seen children been endoctrinated that God doesn't exist and whoever thinks that is stupid.

I think it should be left to each individual to make its choice and that no one should laught at someone else for having different beliefs. There is so much we dont know.

PacificMouse · 14/10/2015 14:56

capsium I agree.

We have plenty of beliefs around us. Some of them are cultural. Done of them are rooted in religion(even though a lot if our beliefs and culture actually originate from religion ...).
There is so a belief that science knows everything and better than anyone else.
Or that there is no God.

redstrawberry10 · 14/10/2015 15:03

Thinking that there is no God is a belief though.

is it your belief that leprachauns don't exist? is that belief the same as the one that asserts they do?

capsium · 14/10/2015 15:13

red

Leprechauns do exist in folklore. If a person truly believes in them there might even be a physiological effect on their brains which in turn affects their perception...this could be the Leprechaun...

redstrawberry10 · 14/10/2015 15:19

Leprechauns do exist in folklore. If a person truly believes in them there might even be a physiological effect on their brains which in turn affects their perception...this could be the Leprechaun...

I am not asking if they exist in folklore, or if people believe in them enough they are effectively real for that person.

I am asking if they exist. Full stop. Like the coffee i am drinking.

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