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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

253 replies

TheoriginalLEM · 12/10/2015 21:42

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

OP posts:
capsium · 13/10/2015 15:33

So I would still lack belief in god even when god showed up. I would go from having no knowledge of god to having knowledge of god....but still no belief.

Good point. This is why not having conclusive proof can be considered desirable as conclusive proof takes away the choice to believe.

Gottagetmoving · 13/10/2015 15:47

Faith is not 'blind' belief

I said : I don't understand why people blindly believe things that were written hundreds of years ago, without question.

I didn't say 'Faith' was blind belief. I was talking about believing in something written by people a long time ago in a bible or holy book

capsium · 13/10/2015 16:25

Gotta I'm not sure how many do 'blindly' believe what is written in the Bible or other holy books. Interpretations can and do vary. Most Christians, according to my knowledge, question and examine their beliefs and have done since Christianity began. The forum site I linked to up thread is full of this kind of questioning and examination.

TheStripyGruffalo · 13/10/2015 17:07

I believe in God but I don't actually want to. I mean, I'm not in favour of religion but something makes me believe in a God even though I tend to think it's perhaps nonsense. A close family member is a vicar so this is a closely guarded secret, I hope they aren't on MN!

hackmum · 13/10/2015 17:14

TheoriginalLEM: "That is a fair point icebeing. I don;'t go to church and neither does DD but I am thankful that she goes to a Catholic school for all of the reasons Crapbag has mentioned. Why those values aren't taught, or don't appear to be so strong in other schools is a puzzle to me and quite sad."

I have to challenge this, because I hear it so often. The primary school my DD went to - non-faith - was lovely, caring and all about teaching children to be kind to each other.

I have a lot of friends whose kids went to faith schools that weren't like DD's. There's one Catholic primary I know in particular that behaved particularly badly in regard to things like bullying and in supporting (or rather not supporting) a little girl who had been sexually abused. If you look around enough, you'll see plenty of religious schools that don't have the values you'd hope.

madhairday · 13/10/2015 17:41

I said : I don't understand why people blindly believe things that were written hundreds of years ago, without question. I didn't say 'Faith' was blind belief. I was talking about believing in something written by people a long time ago in a bible or holy book

It's a good question. It does seem a bit daft, really, in many ways. I guess it's to do with those people's experience bearing out what is written in those books. For me, it's not about a 'blind' belief in random words written thousands of years ago, that would be akin to a kind of 'blah blah blah, I'm not listening, I believe it anyway' kind of thing, the same kind of faith children who are growing up show when hanging onto Santa Claus. It wouldn't be faith made up of any kind of substance. For me, it is about taking those words, studying them, pulling them apart, exploring the context, discovering the richness of hermeneutics and exegesis, criticising my belief constantly, and my experience being such that I am convinced. I do not think there is no evidence for God, but that's another thread Grin

As to the OPs question, I find that really interesting. My dad would always have said he would never believe. he thought religious folk were just stupid and deluded, he mocked them and his scientific bent tended to keep him hugely sceptical. Then he had a very tangible experience of God, and was left in no doubt. He became a Christian, and over the years our whole family did. Was I always going to be a person of faith because my dad converted from atheist to Christian when I was two years old? You couldn't say it was in my genes. You may say, well, they brainwashed me then when they became Christians, but that wasn't my experience. We were always told firmly we could believe what we want. It was our choice. When we had stages of rebellion against church etc nothing was said, we were simply left to while away sunday mornings in bed. No sense of being ostracised. Communication was open and honest. I try to do the same with my dc.

Many, many people decide to believe and would say that they never had a shred of belief before. For some it's sudden, like my dad, for some it's more of a journey. I'm not sure we can say that for all people it's innate. Can something so innate only manifest itself at a certain point in life? Surely it would always be there, always be evident even from childhood - but my atheist turned Christian friends would deny that they had such thing as a faith gene and would say they came to faith through a variety of factors - some experiential, some rational, some more spiritual/supernatural.

I think for some, though, it probably is more innate. Some people seem more 'spiritual' - and this manifests itself in all sorts of ways, whether through faith or through something like exploring psychic experiences.

For me, I can't say. I've believed for a very long time; in that time I've had wobbles, some bigger than others. All of them have contributed to the sort of faith I have, and to my quest for exploration of my beliefs, my interest in always reading round on all sides of debates about faith. Is it innate in me? I'm not sure. I know it's real for me. Very much so. But that's borne in experience and reason, not simply a simpering kind of blind faith in some sky fairy or other...

AbeSaidYes · 13/10/2015 17:42

"I think the 'seeking' has to do with the nature of our human perception. Because what we believe and our willingness can affect our perceptions and processing of experiences, as our perceptions are subject to individual bias, it means if we weren't, at least, willing to believe something we would be unlikely to process information in such a way that meant we did. So willingness to believe is involved in seeking, herein is the choice. This means, in theory God could be trying to get someone to notice His part in life, but this is ignored, time and time again. As to whether this situation 'should' be as it is, is does offer freedom to choose and not to be swayed by every new piece of information.

How do you know we are all born with an absence of belief? If we are, why do some then believe? Do they choose this? Do believers have some sort of power to forceably pass on their beliefs? I don't think so, if they did would not everybody become believers?"

I think I need to break down the first paragraph and digest it a bit to understand what you are saying.

The second bit... I mean an absence of belief in a god or gods. We most definitely do not come into the world knowing that there IS a god, or that any of the Gods created by mankind created the world we are born into. It is something that some people are taught by their families.

Some families don't have this stuff in their lives and so they do not teach it to their children.

Some people are taught it and then decide to reject it.

I am one of those people who was never taught it by my family so am only aware of it because other people tell me they have it (Faith/belief)

There are people on the planet who don't seek to understand their existence on this planet at all, or who choose to do it in a scientific manner. It doesn't have to be a spiritual or faith based thing at all. I don't think it's necessarily a foregone conclusion that all people are born with some kind of spirituality seeking gene.

capsium · 13/10/2015 18:38

The second bit... I mean an absence of belief in a god or gods. We most definitely do not come into the world knowing that there IS a god, or that any of the Gods created by mankind created the world we are born into. It is something that some people are taught by their families.

So you are saying belief in God(s) is purely cultural*? But then why do so many cultures believe in God(s) and have similar creation narratives?

How can you say what a baby believes, before they can tell you? As I have said, I have some very early memories. I cannot really remember ever really not believing in God at an early age but I certainly did question what people told me on a regular basis.

*I actually believe that there is a complex interelation between what is inherited genetically and what is cultural. Many genetic traits are actually epigenetic which means a particular genetic tendency can be affected by environment and our response to it, as to whether it manifests or not.

Gottagetmoving · 13/10/2015 19:19

Gvotta I'm not sure how many do 'blindly' believe what is written in the Bible or other holy books. Interpretations can and do vary

I know, but those who quote the bible to make a point probably do. That's who I was talking about in my post.
I think the Bible was a self help book.Some people took it literally and still do

capsium · 13/10/2015 19:27

Abe regarding that 1st paragraph you referred to having difficulty with:

I could put it this way - Because people possess confirmation biases, as they dislike cognitive dissonance, it means that new information is more likely to be processed in such a way as not to conflict with a person's current view. A willingness to believe involves a willingness to suffer cognitive dissonance, at least for a time, to prevent new information being prematurely dismissed, if it conflicts with the person's current view.

capsium · 13/10/2015 19:31

Gotta I quote the Bible often when making points..Grin

This is usually done by way of illustration, though. Because I believe the Bible expresses a lot of ideas very well, I quote rather than attempting to paraphrase. For me, I quote to say "Look, what do you think of this idea" and reference it because that is what you do with quotes.

specialsubject · 13/10/2015 20:20

I've never forgotten a university flat discussion on faith; 2 had it, 2 (I was one) didn't. We came to the conclusion that you either did or you didn't and it couldn't be changed.

not in touch with any of them so don't know what happened!

but as for choosing religion - if your parents are strong believers in theirs it is not that easy. Still, at least we don't live somewhere where they cut your head off for not believing.

ideally we'd live somewhere where there was no religion in schools, but it could be a lot worse.

AbeSaidYes · 13/10/2015 21:26

A baby doesn't know a carrot is a carrot nor that it is orange, nor that it grows in the ground, nor that it is called somethivompletely different in Welsh. In the same way a baby doesn't know what a God is, that some people believe in one or that churches even exist.

All these things are taught, apart from maybe the Welsh word for carrot which might depend on where you live.

capsium · 13/10/2015 21:38

A baby doesn't know a carrot is a carrot nor that it is orange, nor that it grows in the ground, nor that it is called somethivompletely different in Welsh. In the same way a baby doesn't know what a God is, that some people believe in one or that churches even exist.

We don't know for sure how much babies know or at what point exactly they learn. We don't know whether or how much babies learn in the womb either.

ComposHatComesBack · 13/10/2015 21:40

Of course it is a choice. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and in many cases is seemingly motivated to gain special protection for religious views.

capsium · 13/10/2015 21:45

My DS managed to tear every drip out of his arm, no matter how often they were replaced when he was in an incubator. Meanwhile I was desperately waiting for a wheelchair to take me round to give him his first feed (was not mobile from anaesthetic and had not seen him properly). It was his actions that prompted the staff to get me to him to feed him, although they did ask if they could give him a bottle until I suggested they let me see him...Confused

Good thinking my boy! Grin

capsium · 13/10/2015 21:57

Of course it is a choice. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and in many cases is seemingly motivated to gain special protection for religious views.

Why would the atheists on this thread, who are claiming belief / lack of belief is not a choice be doing so in order to 'gain special protection for religious views'?

I am Christian and believe belief is a choice.

ComposHatComesBack · 13/10/2015 22:45

capsium you are misconstruing what I'm saying. My point is that religious folk have argued that religion should be a protected characteristic in the same way as gender or ethnicity and claiming their religious identity is innate rather than something they choose subscribe to is part of this. Hence we get nonsense like the Racial and Religious Hatred Act, which conflates two completely different things.

capsium · 13/10/2015 22:56

Compo whilst I agree with you that religion is a choice, I feel that people of religion should be protected from hate crimes. Religious prejudice does exist, we are supposed to have religious freedom in this country, as long as we are acting within the law and it is wrong to discriminate against people purely for their religious beliefs IMO. Added to this many religious beliefs are misunderstood, I have had countless discussions with atheists, on these boards, where they have argued with me over things I don't believe in and don't consider to be truly Christian beliefs.

PacificMouse · 13/10/2015 22:57

I think it is a choice too.
I went to a catholic school and their teachings put me right off anything to do with Christianity.
My parents are atheists and very much based on science and 'facts'

However I have always been looking at spirituality and think it's an important part of being human. I also have my own beliefs. Not the ones from my parents, nor the ones from school.
I read a lot and one religion 'clicked' for me. What they said was making sense and I develop a belief in line with that religion.
It was an interesting process as such. Very much based on the
'Well xx said that this is things are. I trust that person so all the incredible a things he is talking about must be true' hence I started to believe that it was true (as in I have not checked that myself. I rely on his account. But these things do confirm the existence of XX and therefore of my belief).

I always had the choice to not trust that person or thei account though.

AbeSaidYes · 13/10/2015 23:09

"We don't know for sure how much babies know or at what point exactly they learn. We don't know whether or how much babies learn in the womb either."

But we do know that 'carrot' is an English word for an orange root vegetable which has been assigned that name in countries where the word carrot is used and that a baby has no idea if it is safe to eat, or nice to cook or to be used for poking in your eye. We teach children these things in the same way we teach them about following religion and believing in God and Jesus and virgin births.

I absolutely do not think babies learn to be spiritual or to have faith in God(s) in the womb because if that were the case I would have religion. It is most definitely something that is put into your life by someone at some point.

capsium · 13/10/2015 23:17

Abe I view learning as an interactive process from the very beginning. I don't think people necessarily just accept everything they are taught as it it taught. We can decide whether to accept, reject or further consider new information. This would be the same no matter when or where learning took place. It is part of our individuality, that we learn differently.

So you could have been learning in the womb but responded differently to someone else who had the same stimuli in the womb.

capsium · 13/10/2015 23:24

And I think we underestimate how much pre-verbal babies understand. I actually remember being able to understand better than I could express myself in language when I was very small (my 1st memories are from being about 6months).

redstrawberry10 · 13/10/2015 23:30

No matter how I try I simply could not force myself to believe in any god.

Why? I am an atheist and I would say that is false for me. Show me some evidence and I will believe.

MaidOfStars · 14/10/2015 00:30

No matter how I try I simply could not force myself to believe in any god
Why? I am an atheist and I would say that is false for me. Show me some evidence and I will believe

But they are two different premises. You can't force belief if you do not believe (1st statement) but belief can emerge in the right circumstances (2nd statement).