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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To wonder if religion/belief is really a choice?

253 replies

TheoriginalLEM · 12/10/2015 21:42

Please excuse my ramblings but i had this thought.

I would imagine that being "religious", be that Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or whatever is a choice, in as much as you choose your religion and or whether to follow it and to what degree.

But belief? What you actually truly believe in your heart of hearts - is there a choice in that?

I believe in God, am Catholic but not practising. I don't feel that i have ever made a conscious "choice" to believe in God and if i were to make an evidence based choice, well i probably wouldn't believe; but i do believe there is a God, i don't know what influence "he" has on my life and on those around me. I believe that "my" God is the same as the Gods of other religions. Its just the religion that is different, but the Gods are one and the same. I don't really know why i feel that. So whilst I believe in a Christian God, i believe that whoever other religions worship are a different version of the same God.

I don't know why - i just "know" and well, my reality is really all that counts to "me" isn't it. My world. my bubble, my perception. Just the same as all of us - it comes down to us as one single being, maybe that,s where i should be looking? If i was looking, that is.

Sorry none of that probably makes any sense outside my own head.

OP posts:

capsium · 13/10/2015 12:29

maid I mentioned directing conscious thought because you said this,

"but you can't stop your head/heart thinking and feeling what it does."

I do believe what we think is intricately linked with what we believe. However I also believe what we experience, hear, say and read can affect our beliefs too. However I think there is choice in the way we process our all of experiences, we can decide how to respond to them, decide what we say, what we read and whether to consider or instantly dismiss what we hear.

What do you you think?

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 12:42

I also believe what we experience, hear, say and read can affect our beliefs too

I agree completely. I think belief is emergent.

However I think there is choice in the way we process our all of experiences, we can decide how to respond to them, decide what we say, what we read and whether to consider or instantly dismiss what we hear

I agree. I'm not sure that informs your belief position though, I think these behaviours are results of your belief position.

capsium · 13/10/2015 12:47

Maid my belief position is still developing, it is not static. I am still learning. So there is an ongoing process here. As my beliefs inform my behaviours, my behaviours, and the resulting consequences, and processing of them, also inform my beliefs.

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 12:54

Maid my belief position is still developing, it is not static

Sure, but we are starting from very opposite belief positions, certainly as far as belief in god goes.

I don't have a belief position to develop.

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 13:00

Can you tell me how you belief in god has developed? I'm not referring to the things you believe about his/her character/job/manifestations/etc. I'm referring to the very basic: do you believe god exists? How does that develop?

capsium · 13/10/2015 13:11

maid how can we be starting from 'opposite belief positions' if, as you say, you do not have a belief position (to develop)?

I presume you are claiming you have an absence of belief regarding God? It is possible to gain a belief from having a starting point of none, I think. Otherwise how would we be able to form any completely new beliefs?

So either you are talking about an opposite belief position to mine and you believe there is no God - a belief position which can be changed or developed. Or you have an absence of belief, that is no belief position, you are a 'blank canvass' in this respect and can gain a completely new belief (to you).

capsium · 13/10/2015 13:20

Not exactly, from personal experience. I remember believing in God from being very small. I do remember disagreeing with people from being very small too, I remember pre-verbal thoughts, manifesting as desires to do something different from what I was being allowed to do, as a baby of about 6 months (have seen photos which match my memories)- so would not have agreed with everything I was told.

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 13:22

I have an absence of belief. Nothing I have ever read, seen, thought or experienced has passed the necessary threshold for me to develop a belief.

How can I develop a belief here? Seek and ye shall find. Sure, but I'm honestly not that arsed about believing in god.

You believe in god. How has that specific belief position developed? As far as I can see, it's binary - you do or you don't.

And the point of the thread is that we can't choose to believe or not - at any given point in time, depending on our own personal set of experiences, we will either believe or not. Belief positions might change as personal sets of experience change, but we do not actively choose a belief position (IMO).

Right now, I could no more choose to believe in god as I could choose to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden. I accept that what is representative of my beliefs at this given time is not necessarily representative of what my beliefs will be in the future (or were in the past).

capsium · 13/10/2015 13:37

Sure, but I'm honestly not that arsed about believing in god.

This, I think is very telling. Why aren't you 'arsed' enough to seek God? It suggests you believe there is something in the seeking that is not worthwhile. It suggests this is more than a simple 'absence' of belief position. If you've no curiosity, at all, why are you so often on similar threads?

vienna1981 · 13/10/2015 13:53

My take on religion is a simple one; that it is for the guidance and protection of its followers. Religion gets ugly when it controls people and inspires fear.

Gottagetmoving · 13/10/2015 13:54

When you are a child you tend to believe whatever your parents tell you.
If they are followers of a religion then you probably will be too - Its not really a choice.
Only when you start to think for yourself does it become a choice. You make your choice based on what you choose to believe.

There are people who are deeply religious for a huge part of their life who suddenly lose their faith for many reasons.
I think it is a shift in consciousness and I believe experiences and perceptions dictate what you believe at various times throughout your life.
Whatever you believe, you don't really have to explain it to anyone and to be honest - however you explain it, most people won't understand because they have different perceptions.

capsium · 13/10/2015 14:01

When you are a child you tend to believe whatever your parents tell you.
If they are followers of a religion then you probably will be too - Its not really a choice.

As, I said in an earlier post Gotta, this is not my experience. Some of my earliest, from being a baby, memories involve disagreeing with my parents over various things...

AbeSaidYes · 13/10/2015 14:09

no one should really have to 'seek god' - it would be so much better and normal and natural for us all to remain without religion like we are the day we are born. Most people only get religion through their parents and the family they are born into.

I was so fortunate to be born into a family with no religion so that, despite living in a Catholic area for 5 years, I was kept away from any religion seeping into my life and then kept away from the school religious ceremony type stuff.

so many children are unable to escape this and so are truly unable to seek out religion independently of any other influence.

capsium · 13/10/2015 14:27

Abe

I think the 'seeking' has to do with the nature of our human perception. Because what we believe and our willingness can affect our perceptions and processing of experiences, as our perceptions are subject to individual bias, it means if we weren't, at least, willing to believe something we would be unlikely to process information in such a way that meant we did. So willingness to believe is involved in seeking, herein is the choice. This means, in theory God could be trying to get someone to notice His part in life, but this is ignored, time and time again. As to whether this situation 'should' be as it is, is does offer freedom to choose and not to be swayed by every new piece of information.

How do you know we are all born with an absence of belief? If we are, why do some then believe? Do they choose this? Do believers have some sort of power to forceably pass on their beliefs? I don't think so, if they did would not everybody become believers?

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 14:56

Why aren't you 'arsed' enough to seek God?
It's not a goal I particularly wish to aim for. I have other things I want to do with my life.

It suggests you believe there is something in the seeking that is not worthwhile
Well, yes. Given the distinct lack of any evidence that I've found, despite growing up in a Catholic household, attending a Catholic school until 18 and singing my way through more than my fair share of hymns, I rather think it would constitute a wild goose chase.

I think seeking is a waste of time. I've sought. It's not there.

It suggests this is more than a simple 'absence' of belief position
Nope. It suggests the same as Abe. There is no needle in this haystack, as far as I'm concerned. If the needle wishes to make itself known, then I'll keep an eye out.

If you've no curiosity, at all, why are you so often on similar threads?
Confirmation bias. I'm on a lot of threads that interest me. I suspect you are too. I definitely have an interest in the nature of belief (not just religious belief), in the institute of religion, and how those are manifested in a multicultural, multifaith (and none) society.

Gottagetmoving · 13/10/2015 14:57

Our minds are very complicated. Perhaps we think too much about why we are here and what is our purpose,
What if there is no purpose? What if there is no reason?
I think many of us forget we are only here for a very short time. Why not just appreciate being here and enjoy what time we have?
All these conflicts seem to cause more conflicts because everyone wants their perception to be shared by everyone else, hence religious wars.

I don't understand why people quote the bible or any holy book to make their point. I don't understand why people blindly believe things that were written hundreds of years ago, without question.

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 15:02

if we weren't, at least, willing to believe something

I think this cuts through to my initial point.

How can I be willing to believe something if I don't believe the very thing I have to be willing to believe exists? It just sounds like circular nonsense.

The very statement "I am willing to believe" suggests that one already believes.

MaidOfStars · 13/10/2015 15:05

Perhaps we think too much about why we are here and what is our purpose

I can honestly say that, on a "human" level, I don't think about either of these things at all, let alone too much

Of course, on a personal level, I do sometimes wonder what I'm doing here. Especially when that momentary urge to plough my car into the central reservation comes over me

BartholinsSister · 13/10/2015 15:12

If there was such a thing as a god, wouldn't it be blatantly obvious, and not need all this faith and belief crap. 'He' can control universes and create bright and beautiful things, but is unable or unwilling to do anything about the suffering of millions of innocent people that he 'loves'.

Gottagetmoving · 13/10/2015 15:15

Of course, on a personal level, I do sometimes wonder what I'm doing here. Especially when that momentary urge to plough my car into the central reservation comes over me

Ha,.. I wonder why am at work or sat doing something extremely boring but I never wonder why I am on the planet. The odds of being here at all are immense ( ancestors meeting their partners - sperm meeting egg on the right month...) but I just accept I got lucky.

capsium · 13/10/2015 15:19

How can I be willing to believe something if I don't believe the very thing I have to be willing to believe exists? It just sounds like circular nonsense.

The very statement "I am willing to believe" suggests that one already believes.

It may be circular but it is not nonsense. I say this because human perceptions are biased and not universal. What beliefs we already hold can affect our perceptions and how we interpret our experiences. Which means we have to be willing to believe in order for our perceptions to support that belief.

This does not have to mean we believe already, just that we are open to believing something is possible. Willingness to believe is a pre-cursor to belief.

capsium · 13/10/2015 15:19

How can I be willing to believe something if I don't believe the very thing I have to be willing to believe exists? It just sounds like circular nonsense.

The very statement "I am willing to believe" suggests that one already believes.

This does not have to mean we believe already, just that we are open to believing something is possible. Willingness to believe is a pre-cursor to belief.

capsium · 13/10/2015 15:24

I don't understand why people blindly believe things that were written hundreds of years ago, without question.

Faith is not 'blind' belief. If it were it would not openly be faith, it would be stated as fact. 'Blind' belief is more synonymous with ignorance. Religious people question their beliefs all the time. Take a look at this forum, if you don't take my word for it.

forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=2

IceBeing · 13/10/2015 15:28

I believe that god is possible....if god turned up and did something noteworthy I would definitely not be in denial.

But that isn't belief is it?

So I would still lack belief in god even when god showed up. I would go from having no knowledge of god to having knowledge of god....but still no belief.

capsium · 13/10/2015 15:29

Why not just appreciate being here and enjoy what time we have?

'Thanks be..'

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