To Think The UK is a Racist Country and the racism is deeply ingrained.

[ACoolDad]

For the last couple of weeks BBC Three has been running documentaries about racism and racial tensions in the U.K and USA. This week we saw a program called "Is Britain Racist?" it failed to prove much apart from black men are seen as more likely to steal from shops and women in Burka's are more likely to face verbal abuse.

As a second generation Black Briton from Jamaica, I have faced racism many times, I do believe the UK is a racist country but it is a in the closet type of racism that is hard to prove. The UK unlike the USA has a type of racism in which few people are openly racist, but racism is deeply ingrained into are mindsets as the program explored.

The presenter who comes across as a very anti racist person still perceived black people as dangerous sub consciously when she had her brain scanned. You have to ask why? You have to ask why black people have been sub consciously viewed as angry, violent and criminals.

I am so proud of my family and my black, mixed and white children and stepchildren. My family represent the tolerant modern Britain that we have and should be proud of.

My son aged 15 was stopped and searched two weeks ago. My white stepson aged 15 has never been stopped and searched, despite them wearing similar clothes, my black son has been profiled by the same mentality explored in the documentary. The type of racism is so difficult to fight as it is so difficult to prove it is racism.

Britain comes across as a country that is improving in terms of race, but I believe certain people and aspects of the media always have to push the idea of white supremacy in different forms. In the past it was considered that black individuals were considered less intelligent now it is considered blacks are more likely to be criminals.

It would be interesting to hear what you think.

I would hate to think I was racist but I have never heard of someone being called 'dual heritage'. I would say mixed race. Not through any hidden racism I don't think but was not aware this is an issue . Is it?

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to talk about the 'most racist' race. In terms of harm and effect, white Europeans have done terrible things. In terms of attitude, are the Europeans 'more racist' than the Japanese were or the Han Chinese? Japan is still one of the most homogeneous places on earth. The UK isn't. You could argue that both are sort of for the same reason - racism. One because of colonisation and the other because of isolation and exclusion.

I think that you would struggle to find a group of people (White, Black, Asian etc.) that doesn't have racist groups with in them.

I agree so much with this thread.

My best friend is black, we went to go and get pedicures once. I went alone to book in the morning we came back in the afternoon and the nail lady who did pedicures refused to do my friends.

My dc are mixed race, the way especially my son is treated compared to his white classmates is eye-opening to how racism is prevalent today. For example last year most of the class kept fighting in break times. The white children didn't really get sanctioned and the black children fighting other black children didn't get sanctioned but the dc who were black or mixed if they ended up fighting with the white children ended up in loads of trouble. My ds's classmates told him he was from Jamaica so much he wouldn't believe me he was born in this country. "but mum my skins to black to be born here".

My dd is super intelligent not a g&t playing the piano at 5 but consistently top of the top set and levels and levels above what the average is. Time and time again her new teacher every year would be surprised and disbelieving of the work she was capable of. She's also had jokes made about her hair, her nose and been called dirty. We live in a big multicultural city.

I've had loads of comments over the years. "ew is that a forringers baby" and then from black women to muttering under their breaths about white women shouldn't have our babies and the classic backhander of oh it's so nice to finally see a white woman able to take care of your dc hair and skin.

If Chris Brown had ever hit a white woman he wouldn't have a career and he wouldn't get any album sales from the UK. As it was rhianna that was ok as shes tough enough to take it.

Black people are seen as overly sexualised, rough and common. If a white woman wore dreadlocks and had a few piercings she would be looked at as expressing herself, if a black woman does the same she's looked down on as ghetto.

My dds older brother and his white friend got caught shoplifting. His white friend got let off with a caution and was home within an hour, dds db was in a cell for over four hours had an extreme telling off threats of court ect and then finally got let off with a caution. He also gets regularly stopped and searched and gets questioned all the bloody time where he got his bike from.

The insidious was white is always the colour of the goodies and black the baddies needs to stop. I don't mean always in skin colour but the clothes and effects. Why does malificant wear a black dress, why do witches wear black ect ect. It's the same effect of having thin airbrushed models on everything.

This society is very much geared towards white privilege and whenever it gets pointed out people get offended and deny it. Congenital beliefs are hard to override.

Terry yes that is true.

So if you can't reduce bias by exposure because numbers, which is true, how can it be done? I suppose I'm from my own microcosm of a bit of London which has lots of different sorts of people and many communities that have been around a very long time.

And that reminds me of the time I got two racist cab drivers back to back while on holiday who said (unprompted!" that they had moved out of London because "too many blacks" and I thought WTF and part of it is that they are obviously expecting me to agree, or at least to empathise. This is about 10 years ago I don't know if things have changed I hope so.

I suppose now they might know not to say it but they still think it - and then you get the hidden stuff the OP talks about, and they say "PC gawn mad you can't say anything any more" and that's a clue I guess.

ACoolDad Yes kept hidden but is that because people are only racist behind closed doors or is it because society doesn't really understand what racism is or more importantly the effects of racism. I think what racism is should be set by those that experience it but all to often, as this post has shown, what racism is and what racism isn't is set by the very people that racism doesn't 'really' negatively effect. So what is racism to you? Your son being stopped and searched I would imagine? That is the only question you have to answer. I think racism is hidden yes, but I also think that the everyday racism we encounter and we don't speak on or are not allowed to speak on feeds into peoples comfort that britain is not racist. What constitutes racism is set by society who will never understand and quite often don't want to understand, admit or even be shown thier privileges, preconceptions and 'racist' thoughts and actions.

As backwards as America is, there is some comfort in the obviousness of their racism. I personally feel comfort in the devil I know and that knows itself and I'm sure many POC agree.

OP's post pretty much summarised my experience in the US. I went on exchange to the University of North Carolina. It was a state not private school and had students from all races. I was often asked about racism in the UK.

I think the main difference was that racism was so open in the US. In the UK no politician would openly admit to being racist - even the BNP! It's socially unacceptable. In the US even people going for public office were far less squeamish. I met a 'Daughter of the American Revolution' whose boyfriend told me that if I had any trouble with 'black brethren' to let him know and he'd sort them out. I was gob smacked but my fellow students weren't.

FattyNinjaOwl Google white privilege!

Doesn't help when kids aren't allowed to mix - this may because the parents won't let their kids in a non-kosher home but that really doesn't improve the situation.

Also a huge thing is the way criminals are described in the press.

If a white man does something awful he's not defined by the colour of his skin, a black man did the same they would drag up photos and photos of him looking like a "thug".

I am swedish and always held britain in the highest regard, being a true multicultural societey. Then I married a black brittish
man and gave birth to a beautiful son and I will never see britain with same naivity again. My 3 year old has suffered racism (we live in london) and it breaks my heart.
It is subtle alright but we feel it. Oh how we feel it, it is ugly as hell.

I've lived abroad and the thing is you want to be with people like you, I don't mean colour I mean sense of humour, common interests etc.

You might make friends with someone European (who speaks good English) instead of an American but is it racism? It's more being in your own comfort zone.

I'm sure there will now be many posts raving about how they looove to meet those from other cultures blah blah but that hasn't been my experience, yes you want to experience other cultures but if you are somewhere long term you want a friend who thinks like you.

That might be why we stick together, are unlikely to make close friends with people from other religions or lifestyles. Call it laziness, you want to be with someone you won't inadvertently offend.

another I have done, and I will be honest I don't feel I am privileged. (Me personally)
I'm not saying it doesn't happen because of course it does. It shouldnt but it does. But I have been followed around shops by security, I have been told I can't have a table at a restaurant because it is a "family restaurant and we don't want any trouble here". I'm a young mum with (now 3) at the time, 2 DCs. What trouble could I possibly cause sitting at a table and eating a meal with my children? So personally I don't think I do get white privileges. If I'm being naïve please tell me, I just don't understand this mindset of " every white person is racist because they are white". That's not true.

I think racism is part of being human. It isn't just white people who are racist. DS has worked with a lot of Africans who hate different African groups and say so. He has also been called 'white boy' on a regular basis by his black employer.
I don't think it is a good thing, but I think people naturally gravitate to people like them, with similar cultural understanding, language etc.

Well sure scooby but this unconscious bias, this preference for "people like us" is what in the UK results in jobs in many industries being far more likely to go to white men, maybe with a certain background. In my company it is most definitely true that the leaders are (almost) all white, fairly posh, very well educated blokes. Most of them are very nice. But they have this unconscious bias - they "like" people "like them". They hire, mentor, promote, network with, talk positively about, people like them.

In my company there has become a bottom line matter - studies show that more diverse companies are more successful - and there is a big push to act on all of this, all of the unconscious bias. It's hard though. You go to these meetings, all of the women and non white people nodding along, most of the white men looking flummoxed. This is the point that a couple of PP have made - if it doesn't affect you then it's really hard to "get it" - and doubly so as "getting it" means that you have to accept that you have these biases yourself.

It's all very interesting, I think, and if money is the motivator then these companies will make it happen because they believe it will aid profit. So maybe not the best motivation in the world, but if it widens diversity, reduces unconscious bias in hiring practices and starts to even the playing field for different types of people then I don't care what the motivation is, the result is positive (unless you are a white straight able bodied man in which case - for some of them I know firsthand - this stuff is weird and baffling and silly and threatening. They have never had to think about this stuff before - and it's not comfortable).

& of course if workplaces open up then that is Mixing which will expose people to others not "like them" and hopefully come to see them as people first, rather than skin colour or sexuality or whatever it might be.

Scooby there is something in that, though it's more to do with shared language and cultural experiences than race. I live abroad, and my best friend is a black Londoner - in fact he grew up a few streets from where I spent my twenties, though we didn't know each other then.

I'd have called my part of London fairly multicultural, so I was shocked to hear how much casual racism my friend had encountered in his youth - and saddened by how normal he found this.

I would consider myself 'white' I always tick that box in diversity questionnaire etc

However I have Southern European heritage and so have pale sallow skin, dark hair and eyes and a Mediterranean 'look' if you see what I mean. I feel like I have had insidious (and sometimes blatant) racism towards me. And so I can imagine it would be far far worse for someone with darker skin than me.

I would say about 80-90% of the time I meet someone new they ask me 'where I come from' of 'what is your heritage'

I've been yelled at across the street to 'go back to my country'

I have been called a smelly Arab

Fatty you get white privilege by virtue of being white. You may not realise it but it is true.

My DD is mixed race, I am white and DP is black. Somebody asked me if I find it strange breastfeeding DD when she is a different colour to me. People see fit to comment on how dark her skin is. The midwife in the ward a few hours after she was born asked me if 'her dad was foreign'.
DP drives a very nice, brand new, car. He gets stopped regularly, and often has police cars following him before zipping off (checking his plates I assume?)

It happens, and it happens more than many people think.

Salem I'm not denying it happens, and I suppose if I was to apply for a job I would be more likely to get that job than a black applicant. So that's my white privilege I suppose. It is probably in the little everyday stuff that people don't realise.
I just don't appreciate being called racist, or being told I don't know what it's like to be discriminated against. No, I don't have to put up with race discrimination, but as stated above I have been discriminated against because I'm a young mum. I know its not the same but I do understand a little bit what it's like to be seen as "different" or "not good enough" or even "scum" (I was called cheap scum the other day, simply for walking down the street with my children, when some very classy men shouted from a car! )

As for the comments you received, how utterly ridiculous. How can it be strange to breastfeed your own child? And why on earth does it matter how dark she is or where her father is from, be that Britain, switzerland, turkey, africa, jamaica, or the fucking moon? (I'm actually quite angry that someone would say these things, although sadly not surprised)

YANBU, at all! Britain has a massive undercurrent of racism. I have quite a few personal experience of it, which I decline to share MN.

My ds's classmates told him he was from Jamaica so much he wouldn't believe me he was born in this country. "but mum my skins to black to be born here"

I don't think that's necessarily racism tbh, but just as likely to be childhood ignorance (well it might be racism, but dependant on the age of the dc, I think quite possibly not).

It reminded me of comments my ds1 made to me recently (he's 7). A new boy started in his class, so he told me all about him, including the fact that he was Muslim. They've been studying religions recently, so it was relevant to his recent class discussions iyswim. He was really excited about the new boy because his class is heavily dominated by girls (about 20 girls in the class and only 6 boys!).

Anyway, that was that. A few days later I asked how the new boy was getting on, whether he was nice and if ds had played with him yet. He told me no, he didn't really like him because he lied too much. Oh really, why's that, I asked.

'Because he keeps telling me he's not muslim, and I've told him he is and he keeps lying about it. Joey and Leo and Tom won't play with him either now because he lies'. WTAF.

So we had a long chat and it turned out that this boy had never told ds1 he was muslim (which i'd assumed was the case seeing as ds had come out with it), ds had decided he was because he had brown skin. And, after learning about Islam in more depth in school had tried to strike up a conversation with the new kid about it, and then the whole 'I'm not Muslim/Yes you are' argument had started.

The school is mainly white, with about 10% Pakistani or Bangladeshi dc, all of whom are Muslim. It's a small school and there are no other races/religions there as far as I know. So all of the dc with brown skin that ds1 knew were Muslim. Which to him, as a 7 year old, had equated in his mind with brown skin always = Muslim.

He was dumbfounded when we talked it out and he realised that wasn't the case (not that it's hugely relevant but the new boy is Eastern European). It had genuinely never occurred to him that someone with brown skin might not be Muslim, so he had earmarked this boy as a liar...and he's an avid rule follower and lying is not something he takes kindly to.

I can well imagine the new kid relaying the story to his parents and how the whole thing would sound But it was definitely not a case of racism on an individual level, or even on a general/institutional level. It was ONE seven year old, making incorrect assumptions, based purely on his own experiences, and not from anything he'd been taught or led to believe by others.

Anyway, sorry that was long...but hopefully you get my drift.

Nope, I'd say that's unreasonable. I'm England there's a racism problem in scotland not so much. Scotlands issues are more comparable to NI with secratarianism. Proddy vs catholic, celtic vs rangers, orange vs everything Fucking else.