To try to educate my friend that she is racist

[eedon]

She keeps saying things like "I don't think white guys are attractive". Ive said in passing not to say that around people as its racist, she's replied with " no its not, I like them " and I've not challenged her more.

She is racist right? If she just said " I find brown skin very attractive" that would be totally fine to me.

Yes I definitely think it's not possible for white people to suffer racism. They can be prejudiced against, certainly. But as MaidofStars says, racism implies a structural disadvantage. What distinguishes racism from any old random prejudice is that it implies that (intentionally or not) it plugs into a whole set of disadvantages, historical and current, so that a single comment has a far greater weight behind it than it otherwise would. For example, I can bang on about how I think that people who wear earrings look awful, what are they thinking, don't they realise it's a mutilation of their body that implies disrespect towards it - and no one bats an eyelid. I say the same thing about people wearing hijabs and it's a whole other ball game - it's not just one random person's eccentricity, it's invoking a whole set of prejudices, and it's a much more delicate area. Same reason why making jokes about the French is not the same as making jokes about Pakistanis. Same reason why making jokes about gay people isn't the same as making jokes about straight people. And so on.

To be clear, I'm not saying that it is not bad if a person experiences prejudice because they're white (or a man or straight or something). On the individual level, it's no better or worse than suffering prejudice for any other reason. But I do think that comments against groups in comfortable positions (eg white people, men, straight people) tend not to be as harmful or prejudicial as comments against minorities or groups that have historically suffered or currently suffer systemic prejudice, and it's simply ignoring reality to treat them as if they are the same.

Sorry, but I don't find black women attractive, or any men.

Does that mean I'm racist and sexist?

I think it is probably a Venn diagram. I think a lot of people who say that they are not attracted to x racial group are racist. They are not attracted because of their prejudices. Then there are people who only fancy a certain 'type'; red-heads for example. The vast majority of red-heads are white so they probably almost never meet Black people they fancy IYSWIM.

I go for tall, built, hairy, rough looking men so less South East Asian/Chinese men fit that profile. However, having been to SE Asia and China, there are certainly some.

I really don't think that anyone should be able to say that another person's sexual preferences are right or wrong (assuming they are legal). People telling women who they should / shouldn't fancy, it's just boring and not on. Telling a woman she's racist if she doesn't want to fuck a white man, what is that trying to achieve? Guilt her into having sex with a man she doesn't want to have sex with? Who does that benefit.

I do however think that in this instance she should keep this opinion to herself as really who needs to know that? And yes it's not a great thing to hear - I have a friend who says "I don't fancy X type of men" and it makes me cringe. I wouldn't tell her she needs to start fancying them or she's a bigot though.

FWIW I don't fancy blonde haired blue eyed pale skinned men (generally). And that's my prerogative surely.

I do agree with Terry about the Venn Diagram though.

Meanwhile porn etc utilises the most awful stereotypes about women, of different nations and different skin colours and different body types and so on, and sorts their content accordingly, and does anyone say "Oh you're racist"? Well yes some people do obviously but it's not considered bad enough that there's much in the way of outrage apart from, some groups who don't have much influence.

Or is it not racist to have a positive preference but it is racist to have a negative one?

If a man says "I don't fancy women with X characteristic" everyone just sort of shrugs and gets on with it. If a man says "I really like X birds" again, some women might look a bit uncomfortable but it's not held up for examination in the same way.

Racism requires institutional power and describes a societal structure that favours, directly or indirectly, one race over another

What a load of rubbish.

That is your definition of racism, considering only the 'big picture'.

On an individual level, it is perfectly possible for anyone of any colour to experience racism. And it DOES/can happen.

Hmmm I'm not sure about all this ignoring history and the way things go the vast majority of the time in order to focus on individual (often one-off) experiences.

It's like when men say "oh but women do it too" - well yes sometimes they do but that doesn't erase the fact that the systematic oppression is one-way no matter how much you want it to.

Oh! Minecraft I seem to remember disagreeing with you on another thread! I don't talk about racism much though I wonder what it was. Sorry just recognised your name.

Anyway regarding the op...I don't think it is necessarily racist as a statement.

I can't think of anytime I've found an Asian man attractive. There are lots of white/black men I find/have found attractive. I suppose if I was pushed to generalise it, I could say 'I don't find Asian men attractive'.

To go around declaring it for no reason makes her look a bit of a nob though. It could well be an indication that she is racist, but not proof alone IMO.

ah lol it was about sexism

So not a fan of the idea of institutional oppression against non white people or females

It's not an unusual perspective I suppose.

FWIW

"Racism requires institutional power and describes a societal structure that favours, directly or indirectly, one race over another

What a load of rubbish.

That is your definition of racism, considering only the 'big picture'."

Is actually quite a common definition of racism, that poster isn't airing a rare and never-before-heard opinion

Well, obviously yes, minecraft, it does depend how you define racism! But if there was no difference between a prejudice based on race and any other prejudice then what's the point in having a special word for it? As I see it, it is the particular historical and cultural legacy that we have that makes a prejudice based on certain skin colours so potent and dangerous. I agree that for the individual, it is the level of maltreatment that matters, not the reason for it. But I think that a white person saying "black people are stupid" does far more harm than a black person saying "white people are stupid" and that it does not reflect the reality of our society to pretend otherwise. That's all I mean.

I would hazard a guess (I have no figures) that the vast majority of physical domestic abuse is carried out by men against women.

BUT there are undoubtedly cases where it's the other way around.

So is it right that we would say to a woman 'you have suffered domestic abuse' and say to a man 'Oh, she's been a bit mean is all'.

Physical abuse is just as deplorable regardless the sex of the victim. I don't have 'more' sympathy for female victims just because they're in the majority. And I feel the same about racism. It's deplorable and equally wrong whichever race is on the receiving end.

The legal definition would support your view, Minecraft.

No. No one is saying that violence against men/white people is better that women/black people. Obviously they are the same. People are saying that comments that connect to a larger social prejudice have greater force than comments that don't.

"So is it right that we would say to a woman 'you have suffered domestic abuse' and say to a man 'Oh, she's been a bit mean is all'.

Physical abuse is just as deplorable regardless the sex of the victim. I don't have 'more' sympathy for female victims just because they're in the majority"

Erm, who has said this? Where have you got that from, I can't see it on the thread?

You can't turn a blind eye to the institutional side of it. Anyone who likes to say "it happens to white people too" or "it happens to men too", well. I wonder at their motivation a bit, to be quite honest.

So your starting point is that people who say sexism and racism are institutional in nature, would say to a male victim of domestic violence "oh she's just been a bit mean is all" while rallying around a woman.

You see that starting point says a lot about your perspective. You imagine that people who are concerned about violence against women and children, don't care about violence against men. You imagine that people who are concerned about racially motivated crime (and other stuff) against non white people, don't care when white people get beaten up.

In your head it's "us and them" and "they" - the people who say I don't like sexism and racism - are uncaring of the plight of the white man, when plight befalls him. This assumption is erroneous.

IMHO not racist.

Saying 'I don't personally find white men attractive' doesn't mean you don't like white men, it just means you don't want to sleep with them. I don't find black men attractive but I find white men and mixed race men attractive. I am more attracted to brown haired men than red heads. I don't find long hair on men attractive at all. But I'm not saying I'm not friends with people who fit this description.

I think there is a major distinction between 'I don't like x people' to 'I wouldn't bed x people'.

Disco - it's not my perspective at all. There are instances of that school of thought on this thread, scoffing at the thought that a black person could be racist-

White people are in no way disadvantaged or discriminated against in this world. A black person said something mean to me. I am a victim of racism. Nope. Don't think you are, pal

Do you agree with that statement? Would you agree with:
Men are in no way disadvantaged or discriminated against in this world. A woman beat me up. I am a victim of domestic abuse. Nope. Don't think you are, pal

They're essentially the same, if you exchange white/black for man/woman. Male privilege. White privilege. People who are excusing and apologising for the perpetrators of any acts against those that have benefited from these things.

It's just plain wrong IMO. If you're a black racist, you're as much of a cunt as a white one.

They aren't the same at all.

DV is not the same as "saying something mean".

What a terrible analogy.

The equivalent would be:

"Men are in no way disadvantaged or discriminated against in this world. A woman said something mean to me. I am a victim of sexism. Nope. Don't think you are, pal"

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with the sentiment TBH. They might have met someone who doesn't like men ie is sexist, but they are not going to be disadvantaged due to institutional sexism.

But your assertion that someone "saying something mean" and DV are "essentially the same" in order to try and make whatever point it is you're trying to make (which is, I think, that sometimes non white people can be arseholes to white people) is discomfiting.

Oh and yes you go on to say that those who talk about one group having privilege over another, are actually out to minimise crimes against the people they see as privileged. That's just a load of nonsense.

The original post I quoted, when read in context, clearly indicated to me that the 'saying something mean' related to some sort of race-related comment. Not saying something mean like 'you're a twat' which is pretty general.

I think what I posted was pretty clear really. But I'm not surprised you find my pov discomfiting, when you've so spectacularly missed the point

I love it when people try to make up a definition of racism that means white people cant be the victims, just because you say something doesn't make it true.

So you would equate "saying something mean" with racial overtones, directed from a black person to a white person, as equivalent to domestic violence?

FWIW twat is a sexist insult, as is cunt, slut, whore, bitch et al.

If a man calls me a slut that is a sexist insult. (This has been shouted at me more than once by men when I've been doing things like walking to school).
If I call a man a slut that just sounds a bit silly. (And I have never called a man a slut let alone yelled it at a schoolboy).

Ignoring social context and history seems to be key for the "men are victims of sexism too, white people are victims of racism too" types.

YES SOME WOMEN AND SOME NON WHITE PEOPLE ARE NOT VERY NICE.

This does not counterbalance or counteract the decades / centuries of oppression that women and non white people have faced.

And it never ceases to amaze me when people look at UK society, at all the people here, and come to the conclusion that the group who are most at risk and most need help and are most let down by the criminal justice system are white men.

Talk about blinkered.