To be annoyed/hurt by my good friend and think high earners should be willing to pay more ?

[whatislife]

i have been lurking on MN for a long time and never posted. Decided to join today and thought I'd mark the occasion with a rant.
I got in an argument with my friend (2 days ago) and the anger re-appeared when she sent me a text this morning. This doesn't really matter though.

The argument started when she made a snarky comment about an old friend of ours (not very close to be honest). The woman had been complaining about money and started ranting about high earners, tax and all sorts. My friend , a very high earner (think 6 figures), kept quiet the whole while and then started talking about it to me. This is where she said something along the lines of 'No one forced her to messed around at school and screw her life up. Im not going to feel bad because I worked hard' and 'why should I pay more tax when I already pay a ridiculous amount and she doesn't pay any'. These comments really angered me because I am also a low earner and rely on benefits - she knows this ! So we got into an argument about tax and benefits (silly i know but personal comments were also made).

My question is ; AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is and be willing to pay more tax so people like me can also have a normal life?

When I worked for (just over) minimum wage in a shop, infrequently went home very tired and with my feet aching.

I never woke up at 4am in a cold sweat stressing about a complex work issue.

Yoir working life is much simpler if you you just have to turn up, work a set number of hours raining items through a till, washing glasses, picking items in a warehouse etc.

Only read the OPs posts.

YABU. High earners do pay a lot of tax, whether they could afford to pay more or not is irrelevant. Unless the old friend that started the whole thing was significantly disadvantaged in life, then your other friend has a valid point. Why should she have to pay more to subsidise other people's mistakes and bad choices when she's already contributing a fair share? Just why? Can you answer that properly?

Do you appreciate how lucky you are to be born in a country with a welfare state that is paid for by doing something that you aren't doing? Or do you just think that the world owes you a favour?

Defenderwife, it's a massive generalisation to suggest that people on low incomes could have avoided being in that situation if only they'd worked harder at school.

There are many more variables to be taken into account than just having access to free education.

Jeffsan Ever heard of the saying Lies, damned lies and statistics?

There are statistics available to back up every view point expressed on this thread.

I am a high rate tax payer as is DH, neither of us had a privileged start in life, both from working class backgrounds. Our 'luck' came in the form of interested adults that invested in us. My parents, although poorly educated themselves were determined that their children would succeed, misbehaviour in school was not tolerated. My IL's were not very interested in DH but luckily a teacher at his school did care and was a great influence.

We pay our taxes and we are grateful to live in a caring society but it grates that people think it is just down to luck (and not the 60+ hours we work each week in stressful jobs). My SIL works the minimum hours to ensure she still qualifies for benefits, in real life I would never comment on her choices and yet as a high rate taxpayer I am not entitled to the same curtesy - apparently we are fair game for abuse.

Good health is luck. Having caring parents (sadly) is down to luck as well. But even these difficulties can be overcome, my DH and I are proof of this.

No not all education is equal, I agree. But what you list are the extremes - almost all schools are good enough to allow a keen student to get an education.

My parents are both immigrants. Mum had to leave school at 16 to help support the family, dad worked as a porter in a psychiatric hospital for years whilst trying to find something better. Had I suggested to them that I was too underprivileged to succeed in life, or that I had no opportunities, that hard work wouldn't make a difference, they would have laughed - and then kicked my arse.

I've had it both ways. Been on benefits to top up my wage as a single mother, now dh's business taken off with tax bill for 1m+. I strongly feel higher earners should pay more and though he likes a moan to his accountant, so does dh. On top of that he gives a lot away. If we were taxed any more though, that dream of emigrating would be a reality, and that would be a shame as his business creates wealth and jobs.

barbarianmum

So what do you think makes the difference then?

Because the difference to me is poverty and lack of choices - a view shared by the WHO and think tanks.

The alternative view, that some people are just better than other people is completely abhorrent to me.

People in European countries pay more tax, have less of a gap between rich and poor and are generally happier and more fulfilled as a society.

Having less of a gap between rich and poor benefits us all.

The difference is the level of ambition that people have and the work ethic that people have.

Maybe instead of thinking just of the hours someone puts in, it's worth remembering the actual skills which earn them higher salaries?

It's always interesting to see folk insisting in effect that the reason they've got too little money is that someone else has too much - usually conveniently ignoring the difference in effort which created each of their situations

PoppyFleur

You make a very good point about the impact that an interested and motivating adult can have on a child.

Without wanting to sound pious, I am signed up with a charity that mentors children who are at risk of dropping out of education, and have become that interested adult.
Their impact reports have shown the huge benefits this can have to a child who is surrounded by adults that give very few shits about exams and further education and job prospects.

Perhaps those who have posted on the inadequacies of our system and the supposed inevitability of outcomes for some children caught up in it would look into a charity local to them who does something similar, and can help give some young people a hand up to a life they don't currently think they are capable of achieving...

Higher earners already pay huge amounts - if you include NI, the government takes over 55% of the salary of someone earning over £150k.

No, they don't. For 15/16, someone on £150k takes home 90k of it.

For the record, I earn highish five figures and alongside hard work and dedication I recognise that a good deal of luck has got me to this position, with the potential to earn a great deal more over the next 10 years.

It always staggers me that high earners can be so blind to the role of good fortune in their, er, good fortune.

If one were to accept that the current public finance trajectory is necessary (very big if), it would be a great deal fairer for me to pay more than for someone just above minimum wage to find themselves worse off.

What an interesting first post, OP

My parents are both immigrants. Mum had to leave school at 16 to help support the family, dad worked as a porter in a psychiatric hospital for years whilst trying to find something better. Had I suggested to them that I was too underprivileged to succeed in life, or that I had no opportunities, that hard work wouldn't make a difference, they would have laughed - and then kicked my arse.

Aren't you lucky to have had parents who valued attainment and education in that way?

I am 'lucky' to earn a 6 figure salary in my 50's.But I worked bloody hard from 16 to 40+ to be in this position. Worked lo hours, moved round, no stability, no partner to settle with and no security of position. I pay my high tax now and Im content to do so, but to say I am 'lucky' to be earning a lot is bollocks and I do not see why my hard work should subsidize others who didn't try at school of otherwise.

OP you are ridiculous to say ' she will still have plenty' - what business is it of yours ? and who are you to say what 'plenty' is for another person...

Jessy if you had read further down, I corrected myself.

Bloody Socialists

Agree with Icebeing and others - hard work can get you a high income, but it's far from guaranteed. I am well paid but it's largely accidental in my case, and I know zillions of people who work much harder than me or any politician and earn sod all.

Yabvu

Your friend is paying the tax she needs to. Why should she be willing to pay more. Good for her for standing her ground.

Btw I also dislike that sneery line about "messing about/not trying at school" - it suggests a direct relationship that doesn't exist.

" All that matters is statistics, not individuals"

As someone who works in a statistical role I couldn't disagree more
(Or possibly I missed sarcasm, it's been a long day :))

YANBU.

High earnings is often nothing to do with working hard at school (or afterwards), but simply the luck of the industry you're in. DP is a v high earner and although he works very hard, if he was in a different sector, in a different role (he's in commerce) he just simply wouldn't earn as much.

I was also high (though not v high) earner before being sahm, and again don't think I worked any harder than other people, just got lucky in the role.

It's also not necessarily about how hard someone worked at school or not. There is not a level playing field of intelligence, skills, or talent, which makes a difference.

Also some professions just pay more than others regardless of how hard someone worked at school. Arguments like this always forget about the whole arts/cultural/academic sector, for a start. It seems that society (particularly post-70s since Thatcher) doesn't place value on anything other than earnings anymore.

I don't resent a single penny of tax, and would support a tax rise for earnings above 6 figures.

Luck and hard work factor less than absence of opportunity in defining future earning power. For some children the fact that they grow up in families where parents just have jobs as opposed to careers can limit their aspirations

Your parents have to invest and nurture your education. If your parents are doctors and lawyers it's far easier to imagine that this would be a suitable career choice for yourself as opposed to kids with parents living on the breadline who know of nobody in the professions and just can't conceive of that kind of lifestyle. The more professional networks and connections you or your family have in life the easier it is to take advantage of career opportunities.

Jassy my father didn't value my education very much at all as it happens. He'd have been perfectly content for me to get 'a little job' somewhere whilst I waited to get married. He actively encouraged my older sister to leave school at 16 and take a secretarial course at college (she later became a teacher). His ambition was all for my younger brother - who dropped out of college and has spent his life as an unemployed drug addict. That wasn't about luck or circumstances either.

What my parents did give me was a good work ethic and, equally importantly, a good look at what life with no qualifications or a poorly paid job looks like.