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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be annoyed/hurt by my good friend and think high earners should be willing to pay more ?

628 replies

whatislife · 07/10/2015 16:09

i have been lurking on MN for a long time and never posted. Decided to join today and thought I'd mark the occasion with a rant.
I got in an argument with my friend (2 days ago) and the anger re-appeared when she sent me a text this morning. This doesn't really matter though.

The argument started when she made a snarky comment about an old friend of ours (not very close to be honest). The woman had been complaining about money and started ranting about high earners, tax and all sorts. My friend , a very high earner (think 6 figures), kept quiet the whole while and then started talking about it to me. This is where she said something along the lines of 'No one forced her to messed around at school and screw her life up. Im not going to feel bad because I worked hard' and 'why should I pay more tax when I already pay a ridiculous amount and she doesn't pay any'. These comments really angered me because I am also a low earner and rely on benefits - she knows this ! So we got into an argument about tax and benefits (silly i know but personal comments were also made).

My question is ; AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is and be willing to pay more tax so people like me can also have a normal life?

OP posts:
JohnCusacksWife · 08/10/2015 09:22

Gullible in thinking that if you work hard, then you won't ever know poverty. It's a fiction

Who said that? No-one as far as I can see.

So what's your suggestion? Just give up and not try to do the best you can for yourself cause you might still end up poor? How inspiring!

QuintShhhhhh · 08/10/2015 09:23

Nonsense.

The UK is a country where you CAN work yourself up the ladder. Where you can get a chance in work even if you dont have UNI, or you dropped out.
DH was a poor immigrant without any sort of education who started scraping the bottom of the barrel and through hard work and determination now has a top job and a 6 figure salary. My friends dd has landed her dream job in her chosen field aged 23 despite dropping out of UNI and working really hard, sometimes for free, just to prove herself.

The problem is that people dont want to start at the bottom and gradually build themselves up, they want to start at the top, as anything else is deemed beneath them.

thehypocritesoaf · 08/10/2015 09:23

And a lot of people don't feel lucky doing shit jobs and long hours and then told - which was the ops point- that they should happily pay more tax.

RufusTheReindeer · 08/10/2015 09:38

I do not think HR rate taxpayers should be taxed at ever higher rates

All i am saying is that all sorts of jobs are stressful and people react to stress differently

And i agree with the poster upthread when they were referring to the stresses of supermarket workers, i wouldnt do that job...much too stressful Grin

Will try and find their name as its a bit rude refering to "the poster"

RufusTheReindeer · 08/10/2015 09:40

It was anothereffing

OhFuckWhatHaveIDone · 08/10/2015 10:05

The UK is a country where you CAN work yourself up the ladder. Where you can get a chance in work even if you dont have UNI, or you dropped out.

Putting it like this implies that social mobility in the UK is greater than (rather than behind) other places. I'd really like to see some actual data to back that up, rather than a couple of anecdotes.

JeffsanArsehole · 08/10/2015 10:15

There is no data to back that up.

Anyone thinking you can work yourself up to riches is completely wrong and should watch that Channel4 programme on social mobility aired last year.

We have the worst social mobility now ever. And are the worst in Europe.

IceBeing · 08/10/2015 10:27

areoflot sexist much?

IceBeing · 08/10/2015 10:32

Can I also say for the record that working hard at school doesn't have an awful lot of correlation with results or progress in life?

I walked through school doing little work in class, no homework at all, no revision, nothing. Got all A and A's at GCSE and All As at A level (too old for A at A-level).

The idea that you can get a better job if you do better at school is fairly reliable on average though obviously doesn't apply to everyone.

The idea that academic success rewards hard work is frankly crap.

The playing field isn't level and anyone who thinks it is is dumb in the extreme.

Binkybix · 08/10/2015 10:34

+My friends dd has landed her dream job in her chosen field aged 23 despite dropping out of UNI and working really hard, sometimes for free*

How was she able to afford to work for free?

There will always be anecdotes and outliers, but in general social mobility is low and there is an increasing trend for wealth to accumulate to those who already have assets, rather than being earned via income through work.

I honestly don't know if I think high earners should be taxed more on income (I am a relatively high earner, nothing stratospheric!) I'd probably rather things like inheritance tax cuts were scrapped first.

However, the idea that cutting taxes automatically increases tax take (the laffer curve I think?) is not right in all circumstances, and I don't think there's good evidence to show that the principle applies at our current tax rates. As I understand it, strong evidence (uncorrupted by other factors) is hard to come by due to the nature of what is being measured.

As for the hard work/luck thing it's very hard to generalise as there are so many factors. I find my job very stressful and harder than care work I used to do. But that's partly my personality, and also because when I did care work I was just looking after me, not a family. Being poor brings its own stresses, alongside the work related ones.

FeelsLikeHome123 · 08/10/2015 10:36

Which chip wrapper paper are you 'researching' for op, I missed that post
Anyways....Biscuit Da da

LumelaMme · 08/10/2015 10:39

Anyone thinking you can work yourself up to riches is completely wrong
I'd say that's bollocks. DH and I both went through spells of free school meals and similar. However, by a combination of luck (see my post above), free uni education, good health (luck again) and hard work, our DC have no clue how lucky they are. I wouldn't say we are rich, but we are very comfortably off.

It's harder now than it was, and takes a bigger dose of luck, but there are still opportunities for young adults with the brains (luck), work ethic (partly luck, partly facing up to the cold reality of the grindstone), and good health (almost entirely luck again) to move up the income ladder.

But it is true that it's easier to be well-off if your parents were before you: I've seen that demonstrated multiple times in my life. Which is why I impress upon my DC that they are LUCKY.

QuintShhhhhh · 08/10/2015 10:39

Oh, I dont know OhFuckWhat..., you mention social mobility, but "social mobility" is only a concept that makes sense in a society based around class and sosio economic status, like is very typical in the UK, but less typical in other countries. So how can you compare like for like and make sense of any statistics. Compare to Norway, for example where you can barely get a foot into any workplace without further education and where you need certificates to be a waiter, and go through extensive sales and retail courses to work on shop floors, even though you are "just" selling clothes, but where the system is so flat that your salary as a shop assistant easily match that of a banker or a doctor. (almost)

After 20 years working his way up in the UK technology sector, and he still cant find a single company in Norway that wants to hire him, because he did not complete UNI. It is probably Just anecdotal, but it is happening.

Another liberating thing about the UK, well at least in London, is that it really does not matter where you are from, if you can do the job and speak the language. This is just an opinion, cant claim it as FACT or anything, and have STATS to back that up.

JeffsanArsehole · 08/10/2015 10:43

www.channel4.com/programmes/how-rich-are-you

Just watch this if you want the facts.

There's such a tiny percentage of people who manage it (and it appears all of those that do are on this thread HmmGrin, including me) that it means nothing.

thehypocritesoaf · 08/10/2015 10:44

Well if you haven't made money through property, you haven't inherited a fortune, and you haven't won the lottery, what alternative is there but to work if you want to improve your position?

LumelaMme · 08/10/2015 10:46

The idea that academic success rewards hard work is frankly crap.
IceBeing, you were obviously very, very bright. One of my DDs is very bright and did bugger all work and got pretty good GCSE results. Her less-bright sister worked her arse off and got comparable results. Hard work, for most people, has an impact on their academic success though yes, there are people who will work hard and get poor grades because their brains just aren't set up that way.

My bet is that the less bright sister will go further in life - have more control over her job, her hours, her pay - because she works harder, is more organised and plans years ahead.

Twinkie1 · 08/10/2015 10:50

High earners do pay more tax thrpugh the system we have presently though.

thehypocritesoaf · 08/10/2015 10:50

I just find it irksome that you get people in inherited town houses or second homes in Cornwall saying oh yes id be happy to pay higher income tax- course you would, mate.

JeffsanArsehole · 08/10/2015 10:53

hypocrite I agree there isn't an alternative but part of the reason we have such high levels of mental distress in this country is that our expectations are so far away from reality.

If we knew that owning a home/a yacht was so unlikely and we were encouraged to be more realistic (we're not, we're sold the 'entrepreneurial dream' to keep us striving ever forward and not rioting) we would be happier.

And perhaps we'd also demand greater equality. Which 'they' don't want.

elliejjtiny · 08/10/2015 10:53

I worked very hard at school and university and got a good degree. Now I earn £60ish a week carers allowance for looking after my son who has complex medical needs.

DH has worked hard too. He has a 1st class degree and spent 10 years working his way up to a management role, earning £22k a year. But he ended up being signed off work for stress and anxiety. He now works self employed earning less than minimum wage.

We live in a civilised society where there is healthcare, education etc for everyone. To achieve this, high earners need to pay lots of tax in the good times. Everyone is only an accident or illness away from becoming disabled or a carer. Earning a lot of money is partly down to skill but it's luck as well.

Scremersford · 08/10/2015 10:55

This thread (and others in a similar vein) remind me of the school bullies who disrupted my (and others') education. In my case, it is probably why I don't have a Maths O Level, because it was impossible to work or learn whilst having the back of my chair rocked backwards and forwards, picking up balls of chewed up paper that had been fired into my hair, constant whispered insults, etc.. Of course when anyone tried to discipline these misfits, it was never their fault, they were never responsible. It was so obvious even then that they would make nothing of their lives, but would continue to blame everyone else for their own lack of effort.

It is true as posters say above that many immigrants come to the UK because it is a country where you can make a decent living for yourself despite a poor background. The poster asking for data to prove this and dismissing it as anecdotal is typical of the above attitude. Since you have enough time to spend on mumsnet, why doesn't the poster bother to look up such data for herself, and maybe provide herself with a bit of much needed motivation in the process, instead of expecting other people to run around after you providing you with everything?

Also, another poster gave figures on average tax rates in different countries. I've worked in a couple of those countries with much higher taxes in the UK (Germany and Holland) and everyone pays higher tax. Even the lowest paid workers pay more tax. As a result, expect to stay at home for many years and to need a lot of family help if you ever want to leave. If you don't have family help, you will always be at a disadvantage. For the average person, a nice rented flat in a good area is as much as they can expect for their entire lives. Of course you won't get that much family help financially anyway, as everyone has much less income all round. Holland has certainly had the "bedroom tax" for state housing for many years, in fact its much stricter in the tax, because people who under-occupy state housing are forced to move on, and not given the option of losing benefits. Many women have given up any ambition of ever being more than a part time worker, because after high tax and childcare costs, its simply not worth developing a decent career. Theres simply no point in pushing yourself, because the financial rewards are not there.

There is no way on this earth I am paying more tax - I will simply reduce my hours still further. In my profession, to get a decent salary of 40k plus, you have to work extremely hard, get no employer benefits, dress very well and work long unpaid overtime. To get to 60k plus, you get even more stress and work and are expected to bring in business for the firm and maintain a certain image. For 100k plus you need all that plus being very very good at what you do, and extremely naturally talented. Many people drop out in their thirties. We need to look at ways of encouraging the talent we have in this country and continue to make it worth their while to actually work hard.

thehypocritesoaf · 08/10/2015 10:58

High salaried earners are low hanging fruit though (and I don't just say that because low hanging fruit is my favourite saying)

There are massive inequities in this country but slamming salaried workers with higher taxes won't help at all.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 08/10/2015 11:13

How would you persuade people to do all the jobs requiring years of study, high qualifications, high stress, long hours, lots of responsibility, etc if they lost even more of their salary?

An absolutely key point - and often conveniently forgotten

On MN threads about pay and employment, it's usually said that a race to the bottom" should be avoided at all costs, and yet we still have posters such as the OP who insist "well, she'd still have plenty"

Disturbing Hmm

Binkybix · 08/10/2015 11:13

The poster asking for data to prove this and dismissing it as anecdotal is typical of the above attitude. Since you have enough time to spend on mumsnet, why doesn't the poster bother to look up such data for herself, and maybe provide herself with a bit of much needed motivation in the process, instead of expecting other people to run around after you providing you with everything?

I don't know if the 'poster' you refer to is me. If it is then the paragraph is a bit unrepresentative of what I said.

I said that there are anecdotes and some outliers, but the research that I am aware of shows that social mobility (for example measured by how far salary will be predicted by parents' salary) is actually very low across the board.

I didn't ask you for research to back up your view that it sometimes happens, because of course it does.

However, asking that people just believe you and accept your point of view, and if they don't that they should find the evidence for your argument for themselves seems a strange way to come at things in a discussion.

Scremersford · 08/10/2015 11:27

Binkbix I didn't ask you for research to back up your view that it sometimes happens, because of course it does.

You need more attention to detail...

However, asking that people just believe you and accept your point of view, and if they don't that they should find the evidence for your argument for themselves seems a strange way to come at things in a discussion.

Again, you need more attention to detail. I really resent someone extrapolating a "message" from what I have written, and making up a point they wish to disprove from it.

You can find research to support almost anything you like if you scour the internet hard enough.

Although I strongly suspect that those with well paid jobs don't have the luxury of spending much time on mumsnet during working hours. I would hazard a guess that they are totally under-represented. The bullies will try to tell you that their views don't count, or that they are simply "lucky" or that they lack empathy (for what? Paying more tax than other people do?).