To be annoyed/hurt by my good friend and think high earners should be willing to pay more ?

[whatislife]

i have been lurking on MN for a long time and never posted. Decided to join today and thought I'd mark the occasion with a rant.
I got in an argument with my friend (2 days ago) and the anger re-appeared when she sent me a text this morning. This doesn't really matter though.

The argument started when she made a snarky comment about an old friend of ours (not very close to be honest). The woman had been complaining about money and started ranting about high earners, tax and all sorts. My friend , a very high earner (think 6 figures), kept quiet the whole while and then started talking about it to me. This is where she said something along the lines of 'No one forced her to messed around at school and screw her life up. Im not going to feel bad because I worked hard' and 'why should I pay more tax when I already pay a ridiculous amount and she doesn't pay any'. These comments really angered me because I am also a low earner and rely on benefits - she knows this ! So we got into an argument about tax and benefits (silly i know but personal comments were also made).

My question is ; AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is and be willing to pay more tax so people like me can also have a normal life?

The tax system isn't fair for anyone. We were high earners but now my DH earns 60k and I had to become a stay at home mum when we had a child with special needs. No job in the world would let me have time off to take her to at least 2 appointments a week and there's no chance any sort of childcare would. Besides, she needs her mum - she's had enough of a shit start already.

Now I 'earn' £500 a month in benefits. My husband is taxed at 40%. We have lost child benefit, don't qualify for anything else. However friends earning £80k as a couple still get a lot of help. We should be taxed as a family not individually.

noones saying that luck doesn't play a part but to to imply, as lots of pps have done, that if you're doing ok it's all just down to luck is simply wrong. Any right thinking person realises it's a combination of both. To deny either is stupid.

YABVU to think high earners should be paying even more tax. 40% of your income is a shit load of money.

Any right thinking person realises it's a combination of both. To deny either is stupid

Completely agree. I've seen no one deny the contribution of hard work on this thread - no one has said (or implied, that I've seen) that it's all luck. Simply that luck plays a part - mostly in response to those who suggest it doesn't. There have been a few of those, there always are on these threads.

other stuff, like a work clothes wardrobe, lunches and coffees out of the home, drinks after work, collections for colleagues, readymeals because you are too knackered to cook, a cleaner and a gardener because you are time poor

Oh please! All of that stuff is choice. Please let's not drag things down even further by suggesting that life for high earners is some kind of struggle.

Do those figures include taxes like VAT Jesse? Of course there are all sorts of other taxes like council tax and capital gains tax. It would be hard to factor them all in.

Why is New Zealand's so low? Do they not have any kind of a welfare state?

Jassy, fair enough. Well have to agree to differ on that. My interpretation of many posts is that luck is paramount and they refuse to recognise that hard work and life choices can be a way to change your outcomes.

I applaud Jessy for this: Lots of straw men on this thread. It's like a fucking scarecrow factory.

Indeed. Really, some of you have swallowed Cameron-speak hook line and sinker. And now he's laughing at how gullible you are

Jassy I mean!

Apart from the biggies like childcare and commuting, other stuff, like a work clothes wardrobe, lunches and coffees out of the home, drinks after work, collections for colleagues, readymeals because you are too knackered to cook, a cleaner and a gardener because you are time poor..... It all adds up and lots of it is compulsory if you want to succeed in your career.

I'm vastly amused by the idea that expensive coffees and ready meals are a hardship.

Less amused by the suggestion that one's salary makes one more tired and time poor than someone working the same hours, in a stressful role, for a lower salary.

I have a high-profile, well-paid, high-pressure job. I make a great deal more than many of my staff; I don't pretend for a second that their roles are not also high-pressure and often stressful. At least I don't have as much pressure or stress related to money.

Gullible in what way, Lynda?

Fair enough, John - I think I read many of those as frustration at people refusing to acknowledge that if you've had shit luck and life chances, all the hard work in the world might not compensate for it.

John I am definitely not suggesting that life for high earners is some kind of struggle. But some of the items on my list are definitely not a matter of choice. Some of them apply equally to less well paid jobs.

Plenty of poorly paid office workers shudder at yet another collection or team bonding night out. In lots of jobs these things aren't optional, they are definitely expected.

Lunches, coffees, drinks after works, collections.....all choices.

Pirate I may be being niaive but how do you get £500 per month off the state if your husband earns £60K??? I earn less than half he does as a single parent and get nothing ....

Tinkly, no. Those are directly income-related. Of course there are very many other consumption related taxes in most countries (for example it is compulsory for all EU countries to have a form of VAT). Compared to our EU neighbours, for example, our VAT rate is at the low end, and particularly so when you consider the number of things that are zero-rated (eg most countries don't zero-rate any foodstuffs).

I'll leave you to research New Zealand's tax status if that's ok. Bedtime for me.

Some of them apply equally to less well paid jobs.

Plenty of poorly paid office workers shudder at yet another collection or team bonding night out. In lots of jobs these things aren't optional, they are definitely expected.

Yes, they may be a cost of work in general - not a cost of high-paid work.

Coffees and ready meals and things like that are definitely a choice, though.

OK Jassy if higher earners are all evil minded gullible bastards, can you tell me what would be the point in them going out to work if they were unable to keep less than half of their salaries?

Wouldn't it be nicer to stat at home, instead of getting up at 6.30am for an early train into work to be at your desk for 8.30? Or to try and avoid the rush hour traffic?

So much nicer to have a nice little part time job doing something you're interested in. Surely most high earners work hard because they're motivated, but also because they want to buy some nice things with the extra money they make? Take that away and theres not an awful lot of point...

How would you persuade people to do all the jobs requiring years of study, high qualifications, high stress, long hours, lots of responsibility, etc if they lost even more of their salary?

How many GPs are already part time?

There are definitely costs associated with working, and they are higher, the more prestigious your job. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Personally I really resented being expected to go for expensive coffees. I also hated having to eat nasty expensive ready meals because I didn't have time/was too knackered to cook. If that's your idea of a good time then lucky you.

Big salaries tend to go with ridiculously long working hours.

There are definitely costs associated with working, and they are higher, the more prestigious your job. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

I have to say I've never found this. As a proportion of my income, these costs have decreased for me over time.

Tinkly, you're flogging a dead horse. No one forces you to go for expensive coffees, or eat ready meals you hate. Those are your choices. To suggest that having a well paid job makes these things a requirement or a necessity is just daft.

Piece of purple - I get Carers allowance and my child gets DLA because she is disabled...and £500 a month does not cover all our extra costs due to her being disabled believe me.

OK Jassy if higher earners are all evil minded gullible bastards, can you tell me what would be the point in them going out to work if they were unable to keep less than half of their salaries?

Wouldn't it be nicer to stat at home, instead of getting up at 6.30am for an early train into work to be at your desk for 8.30? Or to try and avoid the rush hour traffic?

Oh dear. Here we go again.

Where have I said anything close to that? Quotes, please, if you don't mind as you seem to have a gift for fiction.

Yet again, I'm a high earner and likely to become a much higher one in the next few years. I'm on a talent programme, which has people specifically tasked with developing my career and improving my financial situation, which involves a lot of hard work on my part, is the result of a lot of skill and hard work put in over the years, but I'm also really lucky that the opportunity exists. I live a very nice life despite the unimaginable hardship of a high-pressure, long hours job.

How would you persuade people to do all the jobs requiring years of study, high qualifications, high stress, long hours, lots of responsibility, etc if they lost even more of their salary?

Given that you've just described me pretty accurately, making a fuckload more than the average even after the tax I pay is a pretty decent incentive.

And again, it's not a neutral situation where low earners are seeing the amount in their pockets each month stay the same. They're not - tax credit changes mean many are seeing a drop. My argument is that, if it's a zero-sum game I'd rather see those who can better afford it (like me - just in case you missed that) pay than those who are going to have to make pretty grim choices about how to do without the money.

I recognise that other high earners don't agree with my viewpoint. That's fine. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the debate based on actual, you know, facts.

Salene, your DP is missing a trick if he's working offshore and paying tax. Everyone I know who works offshore legally pays no tax in the UK.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then. Good luck to everyone going to work in scruffy clothes, refusing to socialise or contribute to collections, and coming home after a very long day and cooking themselves a nice meal from scratch.