To be annoyed/hurt by my good friend and think high earners should be willing to pay more ?

[whatislife]

i have been lurking on MN for a long time and never posted. Decided to join today and thought I'd mark the occasion with a rant.
I got in an argument with my friend (2 days ago) and the anger re-appeared when she sent me a text this morning. This doesn't really matter though.

The argument started when she made a snarky comment about an old friend of ours (not very close to be honest). The woman had been complaining about money and started ranting about high earners, tax and all sorts. My friend , a very high earner (think 6 figures), kept quiet the whole while and then started talking about it to me. This is where she said something along the lines of 'No one forced her to messed around at school and screw her life up. Im not going to feel bad because I worked hard' and 'why should I pay more tax when I already pay a ridiculous amount and she doesn't pay any'. These comments really angered me because I am also a low earner and rely on benefits - she knows this ! So we got into an argument about tax and benefits (silly i know but personal comments were also made).

My question is ; AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is and be willing to pay more tax so people like me can also have a normal life?

Health and education combined is around 30% of the tax you pay.

The majority? Pensions. And remember that the majority of the welfare budget goes to over-65s.

If high earners paid adequate amounts for the services provided to them by the lower paid

Everyone benefits from services provided by the lower paid though, not just higher rate taxpayers. I'm not saying that wealthier people shouldn't pay more because clearly they should, but I dint think it's fair to say that they benefit from normal society more than anyone else. They don't, because the lower paid benefit from society just as much, if not more.

And while wealthier people should acknowledge the luck they gave had, so should everyone who was fortunate enough to be born in this country. Even the poor in the UK are in a much more fortunate position that most people in the world.

Yes fair point revel but why should I pay more tax as a % when the role itself is more stressful (and even if it wasn't!).

I also don't think that the higher rate threshold is particularly high. £45k wouldn't get you that far as a sole earner in London, for example, or if you had a bunch of kids to support.

I think that's a fair point and I think it's ridiculous that we have a single tax band that covers £110k - I'd support a system like Australia's with more tax bands.

The guy that comes in to mow the grass - you only have one of those if you're rich enough to pay somebody to do something you can do for yourself!

To say being born poor condemns you to stay poor for the rest of your life and there's little you can do to change that is deafetist, depressing and not a little patronising

^^ This

People like Happy, you are lucky. You're lucky that you had enough good health, both mental and physical, to enable you to work and earn. If you can't see that, then it's pretty shameful.

Oh my god. No one is saying we're not lucky to be alive and healthy ffs, but I'm not lucky to earn what I do, i worked fucking hard and risked a lot others wouldn't! Jeez.

You are lucky that you're not too ill to work or do such a high powered job. So, you're wrong, luck has played a role.

My dad can't work. He's severely physically disabled and has crippling mental illnesses. Anyone on this thread able to work is luckier than him just by virtue of working - he'd give anything to be able to go out to work, as he trained as an engineer before he became too ill.

My mum is his full-time carer, as he can't be left alone for long periods of time particularly when his mental illness is at its worst, so she can't go out and work, even part time. She's trying her hardest to get a qualification now so that she can work from home, as she would give anything to be able to go out and work too.

You have been born with a huge amount of luck just in being born healthy enough to be able to go out and work. There's no hard work involved there.

To say being born poor condemns you to stay poor for the rest of your life and there's little you can do to change that is deafetist, depressing and not a little patronising

Well, it would if anyone had said that.

Lots of straw men on this thread. It's like a fucking scarecrow factory.

Agree totally with you saucony

YABU and a bit silly and naïve OP.

AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is

I don't think you have any idea how bloody awful some highly paid jobs are. You don't seem to be aware that people can end up stuck in them, paying their mortgages, but also because that's the level they are employed at, and it can make you guilty to do something easier and less well paid. The rates of alcoholism, drug addiction and suicide in my profession are well known. As are the long hours - the hours you are not paid for, in your free time, in your evenings, in your weekends, you need to work when you would rather be resting or enjoying that free time. But because you earn around 50k or more, you are just expected to do it without complaint.

The constant threats of redundancy or being sidelined by newer staff. The years of study and work it took to get there. I remember even at school thinking that those who messed around would end up having lives devoid of the finer things. I went home and studied all evening, instead of hanging around the streets. At uni I had two part-time jobs and was constantly exhausted. The first few years of work were spectacularly low paid and you just had to stick it out to build up the experience.

I simply aren't prepared to pay more tax. I already don't work as many hours as I could because the thought of getting less than half (after NI and tax) of what I earn is such a disincentive. I know several other people, mainly contractors who are very skilled and whose skills are in short supply, who do the same.

So good luck with the lecturing of the hard working and telling them to give up more of their salaries. I think we should have flat rate tax as 40/45% is far too high and simply seems like a punishment for working hard and being willing and motivated.

Are we really saying that if you are healthy then everything thereafter is luck? Hard work and application counts for nothing? Really?

If you are ill or disabled then - yes- that's bad luck and may well adversely influence your chances in later life. But to turn that on its head and say that good health means everything else you ever achieve in life is down to that single piece of good luck is blinkered.

jorah You have been born with a huge amount of luck just in being born healthy enough to be able to go out and work. There's no hard work involved there.

There is a woman at my work whose feet are literally crippled with diabetes related problems. Her Achilles tendons have basically both gone. She really struggles to walk, but has to work to support her disabled daughter and pay the mortgage. She doesn't know what she will do when she retires (she is late fifties and has spent her entire life working hard) because she chose to fund a mortgage over a pension, because it she spent years on an average salary in an expensive city in order to end up in the relatively well paid job she has now.

Would you still call her lucky?

Do you really think high earners never suffer from illness or accidents? No cancer? Nothing? How great that would be if it were true.

Wow, just wow . Having posted early on I've just come back to this thread and the lack of empathy shown for those who are worse off than the majority is truly depressing.

I would add that the overheads for jobs that pay over £50k can be massive. On that kind of money you take home, say, £3k a month but out of that you could easily be spending £1000-£1500 pcm on childcare and £500 pcm commuting. In return you might be working 50-60 hours a week, cancelling leave at short notice, giving up weekends and so on, all for £250-£400 a week after you have covered your overheads, and out of that has to come your mortgage, utilities, etc before you even think about supermarket shops and other expenses. So slamming more tax onto that would mean people would really struggle.

The people saying that they happily pay their tax bills have slightly missed the point. The OP does not want her friend just to continue paying her correct taxes. She wants her friend to pay more tax. But she doesn't say anything about how much that more tax is. So I can see why the friend isn't particularly enthusiastic to say that she should pay more tax, without limit. No matter how much more she peas, she is still likely to be resented by the OP.

Are we really saying that if you are healthy then everything thereafter is luck? Hard work and application counts for nothing? Really?

Oh, for fuck's sake. Can you find anywhere on this thread where that has been suggested?

A number of people have pointed out that an element of luck is usually involved in becoming a high earner alongside hard work/determination/whatever, in response to the usual delusional 'I got where I am through hard work alone' which simply ignores all the other factors that may be at play.

I find it truly astounding that there are still people in this country who really believe that their high salary is purely down to dedication, work ethic, commitment, whatever ...

Let's remember that PC David Phillips lost his life doing his job this week. Now that really was someone who was dedicated, hard-working and commited to his job. You can be sure he didn't earn a six-figure salary.

Have the decency to show a bit of humility.

Of course no one is saying that John but pretending that you got where you are purely because you worked hard is disingenuous. There are people who work hard but have been unfortunate enough to have circumstances that restrict their earning potential. Acknowledging that is important. I acknowledge that although I am unlucky to have had so many health problems, I am lucky that I've had treatment available and support from my employer to help me work hard. No (wo)man is an island.

I'm astonished that there are people out there who see high earners as some kind of glossy, eternally young, almost robotic people with no souls, who instead should be happy to trade their years of graft and hard work for being limitless sources of funding for others.

We already pay high taxes in this country. It might be a more appropriate argument in the days of Robin Hood, but its not, so stop pretending that higher earners don't already pay a lot of tax.

who instead should be happy to trade their years of graft and hard work for being limitless sources of funding for others.

There it is again. Sigh.

Bof you are quite right, working is often more expensive than staying at home. Apart from the biggies like childcare and commuting, other stuff, like a work clothes wardrobe, lunches and coffees out of the home, drinks after work, collections for colleagues, readymeals because you are too knackered to cook, a cleaner and a gardener because you are time poor..... It all adds up and lots of it is compulsory if you want to succeed in your career.

Also, is it time for a reality check on the relative level of taxes the average earner pays? The OECD has done the maths. These % include NI or equivalents:

These tax rates apply to single people with no children, on an average salary for their country.
Belgium- 42.80%
Germany - 39.90%
Denmark - 38.90%
Hungary- 35%
Austria -34%
Greece - 25.4%
OECD Average - 25.10%
UK - 24.90%
USA - 22.70%
New Zealand - 16.40%
Israel - 15.50%
Korea - 13%
Mexico -9.50%
Chile - 7%

The following tax rates apply to married couples with two children.
Denmark - 34.8%
Austria - 31.9%
Belgium- 31.8%
Finland -29.4%
Netherlands - 28.7%
Greece 26.7%
UK - 24.9%
Germany - 21.3%
OECD average - 19.6%
USA - 10.4%
Korea - 10.2%
Slovak Republic - 10%
Mexico - 9.5%
Chile - 7%
Czech Republic - 5.6%
In Germany the rate drops from 39.9% to 21.3% because of generous child tax credits. Across the OECD, tax rates drop by an average of 5.5% for married couples with children. Greece is the only country where you pay more tax if you are married with children.